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Re: F1 Innovations 2010
Posted by: Whitey*~@ (IP Logged)
Date: 02 March, 2010 00:12
Quote:gabal, could you please post the source of your info re 'exhaust heat and rear suspension failures' on the RB6 please.
to date i have not seen any mention whatsoever re this and i am intrigued.
I was just about to ask the same thing.
Also i was going to ask pgj the same thing for this comment he made?
Quote:That car has a very tight rear-end. It is difficult to understand how there is space for the exhaust so low down. There are some reports that teams are tilting the engine by raising it at the back of the engine to make more space underneath the engine. Ferrari is reported to have done it to make space for a larger diffuser. Is RedBull doing a similar thing here or is this a contributing factor to some of the overheating problems that RedBull has had?
overheating problems ??? i have not read anything anywhere saying Red Bull have had overheating problems with the RB6???
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/03/2010 00:15 by Whitey*~@.
Re: F1 Innovations 2010
Posted by: pgj (IP Logged)
Date: 02 March, 2010 09:02
Didn't Red Bull have a precautionary engine/gearbox change during testing? I an taking my information from the RB area on another board. I am not suggesting that there is a problem there, just reporting it. It is a very unusual place to exhaust the car though.
I hope that there is no problem there because I have been outspoken on this and other fora tipping RBR for both titles.
Williams and proud of it.
I hope that there is no problem there because I have been outspoken on this and other fora tipping RBR for both titles.
Williams and proud of it.
Re: F1 Innovations 2010
Posted by: pgj (IP Logged)
Date: 02 March, 2010 09:17
It seems that Williams is working on a different approach to the blown rear wing.
From what I can gather, the front edge of the lower element is being used to jet air to give a similar effect to the McLaren approach. By raising the front edge of the lower element is creates a pressure wave that will 'break' off at higher speeds and attach itself to the lower element of the upper wing. One theory is that it will then cause the top element of the rear wing to stall and reduce drag in a similar way to the McLaren approach. It seems that it was tried last season by BMW and RBR. I did not notice if we played around with it last season.
Williams and proud of it.
From what I can gather, the front edge of the lower element is being used to jet air to give a similar effect to the McLaren approach. By raising the front edge of the lower element is creates a pressure wave that will 'break' off at higher speeds and attach itself to the lower element of the upper wing. One theory is that it will then cause the top element of the rear wing to stall and reduce drag in a similar way to the McLaren approach. It seems that it was tried last season by BMW and RBR. I did not notice if we played around with it last season.
Williams and proud of it.
Re: F1 Innovations 2010
Posted by: gabal (IP Logged)
Date: 02 March, 2010 17:09
My source comes from BBC aricle ''Where teams stand''. Maybe I read too much into it but this is the bit they wrote about Red Bull:
(emphasis mine)
You are too late, we are EVERYWHERE!
Quote:BBC
RED BULL
Confident in their car's speed, Red Bull pack up for Bahrain looking to be at the front straight away.
Team boss Christian Horner believes the RB6 will be "up there with Ferrari" and is happy with the new front wing, bargeboards and rear wing brought to the last two days of the Barcelona test.
The Red Bull's diffuser is a beautifully intricate bit of kit, similar in appearance to the one on last year's Brawn, with a big lemon-shaped hole in the middle section and Toyota-style vanes either side.
Chief technical officer Adrian Newey has also proved innovator with his treatment of the exhaust pipes.
As this picture shows (right), the exhaust vents to the outer side of the gearbox below the bottom suspension wishbone, channelling the hot air around the rear suspension and out the top side of the floor.
The disadvantage is that the suspension will get quite hot from the exhaust gases, so the team placed blue temperature sensors on the wishbones and the floor during testing to find out if it's too marginal to use.
In a comical and ultimately futile attempt to mislead rival teams and the watching media, the picture also shows that Red Bull placed a sticker of an exhaust pipe on the upper bodywork below the upper wishbone, where one would expect to see it!
As well as that clever chassis, a fuel efficient Renault engine and good tyre performance in qualifying trim mean that the Red Bull is many people's tip for the championship.
One downside: reliability. Precautionary changes to gearboxes and oil pumps interrupted Red Bull's Saturday programme in Barcelona, leading to Mark Webber having to surrender half his allotted time in the car on Sunday to Sebastian Vettel, much to the Australian's annoyance.
(emphasis mine)
You are too late, we are EVERYWHERE!
Re: F1 Innovations 2010
Posted by: jt77 (IP Logged)
Date: 02 March, 2010 22:19
[scarbsf1.wordpress.com]
more info on red bulls exhaust blown diffuser, seems neweys always been a bit partial to the idea..
more info on red bulls exhaust blown diffuser, seems neweys always been a bit partial to the idea..
Re: F1 Innovations 2010
Posted by: K1 (IP Logged)
Date: 02 March, 2010 22:24
yes gabal, i read that report when it was published and it in no way indicates that there were any 'overheating failures'. it simply states that they were testing via sensors what the relative temps in fact were. a no brainer given the location of the exhausts. as they don't appear to have relocated the exhausts or replaced the floor one can possibly assume that all is okey dokey.
the changing of the engine and gearbox on the car that mark webber was running was 'precautionary' but what the reason for doing this was has not been stated. to assume that it was for anything associated with 'exhaust positioning and overheating' is, prima facie, presumptive.
the changing of the engine and gearbox on the car that mark webber was running was 'precautionary' but what the reason for doing this was has not been stated. to assume that it was for anything associated with 'exhaust positioning and overheating' is, prima facie, presumptive.
Re: F1 Innovations 2010
Posted by: gabal (IP Logged)
Date: 02 March, 2010 23:36
Like I said - maybe I'm reading too much into it. Also, ambient temperatures at test were much lower then during the season so no failure now doesn't mean there won't be problems with overheating at Bahrain, Sepang etc.
You are too late, we are EVERYWHERE!
You are too late, we are EVERYWHERE!
Re: F1 Innovations 2010
Posted by: K1 (IP Logged)
Date: 03 March, 2010 07:32
yes, that is true. i am confident that the 'meister', AN, would have set a window for a range of temperatures where the integrity of the wishbone material would in fact become compromised.
adrian newey is perhaps one of the greatest F1 designers of the modern era and whilst no one is infallible i am more than happy in the knowledge that he knows infinitely more than i could ever know about F1 aero/engineering and that reason alone leads me to accept and not question his decisions.
adrian newey is perhaps one of the greatest F1 designers of the modern era and whilst no one is infallible i am more than happy in the knowledge that he knows infinitely more than i could ever know about F1 aero/engineering and that reason alone leads me to accept and not question his decisions.
Re: F1 Innovations 2010
Posted by: pgj (IP Logged)
Date: 03 March, 2010 17:17
A summary of what each of the teams has been up to: http://www.racecar-engineering.com/articles/f1/444950/f1-2010-pre-season-testing-round-up.html
[edit broken link]
Williams and proud of it.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/03/2010 17:21 by pgj.
[edit broken link]
Williams and proud of it.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/03/2010 17:21 by pgj.
Re: F1 Innovations 2010
Posted by: Bond (IP Logged)
Date: 03 March, 2010 18:15
Quote:pgj
A summary of what each of the teams has been up to: http://www.racecar-engineering.com/articles/f1/444950/f1-2010-pre-season-testing-round-up.html
[edit broken link]
Thank you. Excellent read.
Re: F1 Innovations 2010
Posted by: pgj (IP Logged)
Date: 04 March, 2010 13:18
There are objections to McLaren's blown wing. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/motorsport/formulaone/f1news/7362422/Formula-One-2010-McLaren-await-FIA-ruling-on-wing-innovation.html
Williams and proud of it.
Williams and proud of it.
Re: F1 Innovations 2010
Posted by: pgj (IP Logged)
Date: 04 March, 2010 14:38
More on blown wings: http://scarbsf1.wordpress.com/2010/03/04/blown-rear-wings-seperating-and-stalling/
Williams and proud of it.
Williams and proud of it.
Re: F1 Innovations 2010
Posted by: Captain Avenger (IP Logged)
Date: 06 March, 2010 03:14
Going on Horner's comments I don't think Red Bull have the blown wing yet ?
(If you can believe anyone in F1 that is
)
All they are saying is that they have one ready to put on if it's declared legal.
I hope it's all sorted before the racing starts.
I know protests are part of F1, but it only puts a cloud over the racing and it will be a shame if that happens.
(If you can believe anyone in F1 that is
)
All they are saying is that they have one ready to put on if it's declared legal.
I hope it's all sorted before the racing starts.
I know protests are part of F1, but it only puts a cloud over the racing and it will be a shame if that happens.
Re: F1 Innovations 2010
Posted by: K1 (IP Logged)
Date: 06 March, 2010 07:47
i don't know that it is actually a protest as such. protests can't really be made until a race has been completed. it seems to be more of a 'query' in the public domain so that the FIA will have to make a decision/ruling prior to the first race.
that of itself does not preclude a protest later if a team doesn't agree with the FIA ruling and wished to proceed.
that of itself does not preclude a protest later if a team doesn't agree with the FIA ruling and wished to proceed.
Re: F1 Innovations 2010
Posted by: Captain Avenger (IP Logged)
Date: 06 March, 2010 09:59
Sure K1, understood mate.
I wasn't trying to call it a protest just yet, that's why I tried to word it right
I wasn't trying to call it a protest just yet, that's why I tried to word it right
Quote:Captain Avenger
I hope it's all sorted before the racing starts.
I know protests are part of F1, but it only puts a cloud over the racing and it will be a shame if that happens.
Re: F1 Innovations 2010
Posted by: pgj (IP Logged)
Date: 14 March, 2010 14:16
After the first race it is interesting to note that the two best cars are using a 'V' keel.
Williams and proud of it.
Williams and proud of it.
Re: F1 Innovations 2010
Posted by: pgj (IP Logged)
Date: 16 March, 2010 17:37
Scarbs' summary of developments: http://www.racecar-engineering.com/articles/f1/446840/f1-aero-updates-bahrain.html
Williams and proud of it.
Williams and proud of it.
Re: F1 Innovations 2010
Posted by: Bond (IP Logged)
Date: 16 March, 2010 21:10
Quote:pgj
Scarbs' summary of developments: http://www.racecar-engineering.com/articles/f1/446840/f1-aero-updates-bahrain.html
Thank you pgj! Here is the Williams blurb for the lazy:
Thought it was interesting that you had mentioned in the past about Williams's own blown wing, which was not readily apparent to me. But is mentioned below. Now I have to look for it.
Friday practice saw Williams
* Conduct further testing of their blown rear wing.
* This wing takes the 15cm slot inlet in the front of the main plan and diverges to span the full width of the wing.
* Even conducting tests with Flow vis paint applied, to show the complex surface flow under the wing.
* Neat features abound on the FW32, one is the rear wings connection to the diffuser, rather a simple plate, the team have formed of five small vanes shaped to allow the airflow passing between the wheel to expand behind the car.
* While the snow plough turning vane is far more complex than the launch version or the Brawn 2009 device it is inspired by. The vane is mounted to the front splitter and has an opening in the middle to allow flow to pass through it, while still creating the vortices that are directed under the floor to feed the diffuser.
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 16/03/2010 21:33 by Bond.
Re: F1 Innovations 2010
Posted by: crusty_bread (IP Logged)
Date: 16 March, 2010 23:12
I read a couple of articles stating that following Bahrain steward scrutiny, the diffusers of Renault/McLaren + 1 other team were going to be discontinued by the Australian GP and that McLaren's snorkel was going to be outlawed too. I have not heard an official announcement- is this the case or not?
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