f1
Latest News:

2019 Australian Grand Prix Countdown

Days
Hours
Minutes
Seconds

Goto Page: Previous123
Current Page: 3 of 3
 
Re: Sir Frank Williams announced his decision to step down from the Board.
Ozzy Osbone (IP Logged)
07 March, 2012 23:43
I take your points but the net result is that Williams threw away Mansell at his prime, Hill at his prime and Newey at his prime.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing but all those things are plain stupid.

 
Re: Sir Frank Williams announced his decision to step down from the Board.
crusty_bread (IP Logged)
08 March, 2012 09:15
Now I think it is you being harsh, Ozzy. Frank Williams didn't throw Newey away- Newey left of his own accord. Perhaps Frank Williams underestimated Adrian's talents and could have done more to keep him, but that is a minor criticism. Frank was no designer, and had enjoyed plenty of success with Patrick Head prior to Newey joining the team. To be expected to relinquish some control of his team to a chief aerodynamicist was a first for him, although with hindsight, looking at the long-term picture (age etc) it would have been worth it. Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

I do feel you over-estimate Hill and Mansell. They were great talents, but losing them cost Williams nothing. Williams were the best team in F1 and could afford to be arrogant. Losing Mansell for Prost can hardly be described as stupid. Quite the opposite, in fact, given how little Prost needed to try, and how easily he won the title. You forget SFW didn't throw Mansell away. He made Mansell an offer to race alongside Prost, and Mansell should have accepted but for his fragile ego getting in the way. As the best team in F1, why should Williams have been held to ransom? It was Mansell who walked away from another title, and guess what? Williams still took both titles without him- easily. So who was the stupid one? Ask Nelson Piquet...The fact is, Mansell couldn't bear the idea of being shown up by Prost, so make of that what you will...

As for Hill, he had, during 1995, proved himself to be not as good as Schumacher. Williams had given him arguably as good a car as the Benetton, yet the season was a wash-out. Of course Williams was looking around. None of thr top drivers could hold a candle to Michael at the time. The 1996 car was all dominant, but the prospect of Ferrari making gains in 1997 naturally had Williams looking around. Williams' rookie driver had almost beaten Hill to the title, and he was looking for someone who could stick it to Schumacher in a way Hill hadn't. Frentzen certainly had that reputation at the time, and proved in subsequent seasons that he was indeed very talented, (destroying Hill at Jordan) but he was simply unable to cope with Villeneuve in one ear and Patrick in the other when his opportunity finally came along. hindsight is a wonderful thing. For the record, I think HHF was very gifted. To be faster than Hill and Herbert requires a little pace. So Hill for Frentzen being stupid? No. He spotted a talent, but HHF couldn't get the best out of himself as the team started to slump, and turned on him. Still- 2 titles in the back that year. Who cares?

Finally, you put a massive weight on Hill's development abilities and speed, but Williams had lost Newey in 1997, and he was the ones designing the upgrades- not Hill. Despite all this, Williams still won both titles. As for Arrows, that team was already on the up. It just been taken over by TWR, it has Frank Dernie and John Barnard drafted in to design the car, and a cash injection from Diniz' dad. That car was naturally fast at slower tracks- Brazil being a case in point. Hill was stand-out in Hungary, but otherwise, his dominance over Diniz was merely picking up where Panis had left off and was perhaps the only driver extracting the car's potential- much like Rosberg in 2009.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 08/03/2012 09:38 by crusty_bread.

 
Re: Sir Frank Williams announced his decision to step down from the Board.
mayhemfunkster (IP Logged)
08 March, 2012 10:59
Knowing how much you respect the drivers involved, that is an impressive post Crusty thumbs down

The prime factor in the Mansell debacle was Renault. They dearly wanted a French driver and made it difficult for Mansell and to some extent, Williams. Reading between the lines of Nigel, Thynne and Head in various interviews, it seems a deal was done with Nigel before Hungary, which was voided by Williams when Senna offered to driver for nothing. Mansell then tried again, asking for more money once that fell through. When Williams baulked, he decided the team and its partners no longer wanted him and he (in a minor hissy fit) announced his retirement. Williams tried to stop him at the last moment, but failed.

It was Renault's influence, combined with Prost coming in to benefit on what Mansell had worked hard to achieve (getting personal undertakings from Williams, Renault, Canon, Camel et all about their commitment to him). He saw the tricks Prost pulled at Ferrari and didn't want to go through it again. Especially as he was proven right and was now reigning champion. Thynne resigned due to the lack of personal respect shown towards Mansell.

Mansell should not be underrated. His effect on Williams was motivating as Head had pointed out: Mansell encouraged the team to use it's A-game. However they didnt need him with Prost in the wings (and Senna...who duly arrived once Prost's 'veto' contract was terminated).

Hill is a different matter. It was all about 1995. The FW17 *WAS* the quickest car of the year and the team squandered it - drivers included. Coulthard was too close to Hill and Damon became obsessed with trying to beat Schumacher -and it destroyed his head.

Williams had early transmission problems then got destroyed by Benetton on strategy - running dull simple strategies that got Benetton into the lead and destroyed Hill's motivation as Schumacher blitzed into the distance on a short middle stint or whatever. Benetton were the first to utilise clever strategy, and Williams still havent caught up to this day.

The problem was that HHF was signed before 1996 and therefore it looked like a silly decision, but he was signed in 1995 and then it made perfect sense. In my recently found tape of Suzuka 1995, Jonathan Palmer asses Hill and Coulthard and concludes that in 1995 Schumacher, Alesi and Hakkinen (pre-accident) were streets ahead of them. In that race alone, Alesi was 5sec/lap quicker than most on slicks in the wet and Hakkinen was keeping ahead of Williams on merit in the sh1tbox MP4/10. Looking at what those drivers were doing in late 1995 I will not argue with that sentiment. FW thought the same but Alesi was off to Benetton and Hakkinen tied to McLaren, so the next most impressive talents for me were HHF and Salo. FW's thinking is quite logical actually.

Newey had his head turned by Dennis (as happens so often), and Williams was daft to not tie him up - like Dennis did to Jaguar. But Dennis offered him the world (like Montoya, Mansell, Coulthard etc etc).

Williams' main period of stupidity I think was during the BMW era when we got bogged down with Technical direction and didn't try hard enough to change the culture of the team. We lost BMW (in small part) because of this and that attitude seemed to pervade from about 2004-2011. Now that is the Sam era but I have to ask why Patrick didn't sort it or Frank didn't ask him to? I suspect this dawned on them and they have realised it is starting to get away from them hence them both stepping back.

I honestly think that.



mayhemlurker ;-)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/03/2012 11:04 by mayhemfunkster.

 
Re: Sir Frank Williams announced his decision to step down from the Board.
mayhemfunkster (IP Logged)
08 March, 2012 11:13
Sorry to double dip but re: driver selection:

I think the only driver mistake we have made (not counting Pay drivers) was Zanardi. But how could FW have known he would struggle so bad?

He was AWESOME in CART. Beyond Awesome on occaison, and given Mansell's performance over there, and JV's performance over here it made perfect sense.

I think Wurz turned out to be a mistake but again - he seemed to be quick still prior to 2007.

Literally until 2012 we have always had some of the best drivers available - another reason for my confusion regards support for the team going forwards.



mayhemlurker ;-)

 
Re: Sir Frank Williams announced his decision to step down from the Board.
crusty_bread (IP Logged)
08 March, 2012 11:40
In Williams' position, it's about talent-spotting, and running with them. If this new team can turn Williams around, they will earn massive respect.

We can only dream, but I for one have been quite impressed with Senna's consistency in testing, and with Gillan's pragmatic approach to the test-programme. I would also love the idea of seeing Maldonado stick it to the top runners and see how the world reacts to that.

What I don't like is this continued hiding away of Coughlan. Ok- he accepted the information from Stepney, but McLaren's hostility towards him joining Williams strikes me as rather hypocritical.

Who was it freely discussing and using the data? Alonso and De La Rosa. For such a culture to have permeated down through the race engineers to the drivers suggests Coughlan was no more than the "fall" guy. I would be amazed if Dennis had no knowledge or say over what was transpiring. Given lie-gate, and all the blackmailing going on with Alonso, there was clearly a culture developing in the team where right and wrong was no longer clear. In much the same way that Dave Ryan held his hand up to save Dennis and Hamilton, so Coughlan did the same, but that doesn't nullify the others' involvement, nor give them the right to take the moral high ground.

I wish Williams would stop cowering their heads; Mike Coughlan is Williams' Technical Director and the team should get some guts and bring him to the race-track, or risk compromising their operations. He deserves to be there just as much as McLaren and Alonso, and should not be held to ransom by the press.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 08/03/2012 11:55 by crusty_bread.

 
Re: Sir Frank Williams announced his decision to step down from the Board.
mayhemfunkster (IP Logged)
08 March, 2012 12:42
Agree Entirely.

If you listen to what Stepney has *not* said it is quite interesting. I paraphrase but it is basically "One day I will tell you what really happened and you will be shocked".

I still think that entire thing was engineered by Ferrari.

Coughlan wasn't smart but he definitley became the whipping boy for all of F1.

McLaren's resistance is probably because they know he is good.



mayhemlurker ;-)

 
Re: Sir Frank Williams announced his decision to step down from the Board.
crusty_bread (IP Logged)
08 March, 2012 13:04
I would love to know what really happened.
"In Gillan we trust" I think you wrote a while back? That certainly seems to be Williams' motto right now. We haven't seen Coughlan during the whole of winter testing, nor Parr for that matter...

 
Re: Sir Frank Williams announced his decision to step down from the Board.
mayhemfunkster (IP Logged)
08 March, 2012 13:34
Yes, Parr has been kept quiet since the Maldonado "replusive" incident that instantly alienated the F1 press Corps against him.

Considering the hiring of another senior operations engineer, I think Gillan is meandering towards being TP in all operational terms, even if FW is still doing the figurehead/commercial side of the role.

The proof will be in the pudding, but I say bring it on. Gillan seems to be calm, analytical and although some are not impressed with his words to the press, they are at least bullsh1t free. I like the cut of his jib. Very Williams IMO.

"In Gillan we Trust" still rings true for now! winking smiley



mayhemlurker ;-)

 
Re: Sir Frank Williams announced his decision to step down from the Board.
Will I Ams (IP Logged)
08 March, 2012 13:59
Quote:
crusty_bread

What I don't like is this continued hiding away of Coughlan.

I wish Williams would stop cowering their heads; Mike Coughlan is Williams' Technical Director and the team should get some guts and bring him to the race-track, or risk compromising their operations. He deserves to be there just as much as McLaren and Alonso, and should not be held to ransom by the press.

From what I am lead to believe the decision has been taken by Williams to let Coughlan get on with the job of getting a good car on the track and working with the team at the factory (which, with a track record of previously being within a winning team, he is doing) but he is not seen as very media savvy whereas Gillian is seen as a very good representative for Williams, been more sensitive to and with the press and I think he has done a good job over testing.

Other 'rumours' are that:
-Williams we running heavy throughout testing, even in qualifying trim
-Williams were behind with their production so spare parts/bodywork were limited during testing so drivers told to push, but be careful to esure testing time was maximised
-Senna been a big hit with the team, gives the impression that he wants to be in the factory meeting the team, rather than he's being told he has to do it

Overal I think testing has been very positive and I am looking forward to Australia, but despite all the above, we will never truly know where we are until racing properly starts.

Here's hoping to getting the better of the mid-field

(PS. Sources will not be revealed!)

 
Re: Sir Frank Williams announced his decision to step down from the Board.
wevets (IP Logged)
09 March, 2012 07:43
Gillan's pretty good. as I recall, he David Pitchforth and Tony Purnell helped make Redbull.
Horner gets a lot of credit, but Gillan and those guys made the RB1 and handed RedBull Racing a very good team/car. Williams(esp. last year) reminded me of jagua(redbull) prior to these guys.... A big change they made at Jag was to stop stabbing in the dark with development
I reckon Gillan knows what he's doing.

 
Re: Sir Frank Williams announced his decision to step down from the Board.
drunkmunky (IP Logged)
09 March, 2012 21:16
Gillan makes everything so clear.

It seems almost ridiculous when you compare the lack of progress Sam Michael made.

What a stark contrast between the two

Goto Page: Previous123
Current Page: 3 of 3

Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.
We record all IP addresses on the Sportnetwork message boards which may be required by the authorities in case of defamatory or abusive comment. We seek to monitor the Message Boards at regular intervals. We do not associate Sportnetwork with any of the comments and do not take responsibility for any statements or opinions expressed on the Message Boards. If you have any cause for concern over any material posted here please let us know as soon as possible by e-mailing abuse@sportnetwork.net
 
 

Who is online?

Total users online:  

Most users online:  

Users on this site:  

Where are they?