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Re: NIKI LAUDA says F1 will lose fans if there continues to be different Grand Prix winners
rrafekaj (IP Logged)
30 May, 2012 14:21
Lauda ought to stay quiet
This is the best season in ages

 
Re: NIKI LAUDA says F1 will lose fans if there continues to be different Grand Prix winners
K1 (IP Logged)
30 May, 2012 22:30
sorry crusty, i am not in any way convinced by your argument. would you have the same outlook if williams had not pulled off a singular win?

you say that the tyres are constant. i don't think they are. the tracks are constant insofar as they don't change in design or layout. the variables are the tyres due to compounds/construction and the reactions to temperature fluctuations. that is why we are seeing so many different results.

monaco was without any real attacking due to the fact that the drivers were heavily influenced by the 'falling off the cliff' reaction if they gave it 100%. your claim of the tyres being durable is wrong. they didn't have a long life. if they had then the drivers would've/may've been more aggressive in the knowledge that they could get more out of the tyres.

yes, i may in the minority of views on this thread but that doesn't automatically exclude my opinion as having any validity.

 
Re: NIKI LAUDA says F1 will lose fans if there continues to be different Grand Prix winners
A.Fant (IP Logged)
31 May, 2012 00:01
Quote:
K1
sorry crusty, i am not in any way convinced by your argument. would you have the same outlook if williams had not pulled off a singular win?
you say that the tyres are constant. i don't think they are. the tracks are constant insofar as they don't change in design or layout. the variables are the tyres due to compounds/construction and the reactions to temperature fluctuations. that is why we are seeing so many different results.

monaco was without any real attacking due to the fact that the drivers were heavily influenced by the 'falling off the cliff' reaction if they gave it 100%. your claim of the tyres being durable is wrong. they didn't have a long life. if they had then the drivers would've/may've been more aggressive in the knowledge that they could get more out of the tyres.

yes, i may in the minority of views on this thread but that doesn't automatically exclude my opinion as having any validity.

I don't agree that drivers weren't attacking, Perez and Button both crashed while trying to overtake and Senna was within 0.5s of Rไikk๖nen for about 30 laps. The difference in pace was just too small for overtaking at Monaco. This due to the competitive field and the fact that everyone's tyres were in basically the same condition throughout the race, due to low tyre wear.

Vettel would probably have driven the entire race on his set of soft tyres if it were allowed...

 
Re: NIKI LAUDA says F1 will lose fans if there continues to be different Grand Prix winners
j-s (IP Logged)
31 May, 2012 01:04
Of course the tyres are a constant... they have the same specifications from the beginning of testing until the last race AFAIK. And every car has the same tyres. Everything the same. Constant.

Temperature and other variables like mechanical grip or engine maps or whatever will influence how tyres behave as they deteriorate, of course, but teams can predict this. Why? Because they're a constant. An intriguing, so far baffling constant that's mixing up the order. But just because they're hard to decipher doesn't mean they vary.

So I think the real variable is a team's ability to maximize their performance through the right use of their tyres.

 
Re: NIKI LAUDA says F1 will lose fans if there continues to be different Grand Prix winners
crusty_bread (IP Logged)
31 May, 2012 08:19
Quote:
K1
sorry crusty, i am not in any way convinced by your argument. would you have the same outlook if williams had not pulled off a singular win?

Yes. before Spain, I was enjoying the battle at the front this season a lot more than 2011. Perez' drive in Malaysia, Rosberg's win in China, and the constant catching, passing or otherwise, or successful nursing of tyres has been really good fun, as Im sure others on here would agree.

Quote:
K1
you say that the tyres are constant. i don't think they are. the tracks are constant insofar as they don't change in design or layout. the variables are the tyres due to compounds/construction and the reactions to temperature fluctuations.

There are 4 different tyre compounds which have been set and have been a constant since winter testing began.

There are 20 different track layouts, some of which are more abrasive on tyres, some are less so. Some wear the fronts more, some wear the rears.

There are 12 completely different car designs in the field with thousands of different components, and with literally millions of different set-ups permeatations, each of which will affect tyre performance. How each car reacts to each compound of tyre will vary, as will how each car uses its tyres at each track, and each design will be affected differently depending on track temperature.

Therefore, the biggest unknown is the car, not the tyre.

If you ask me, the likes of RedBull are suffering the most due to losing the EBD which glued the car to the track under braking, mid-corner and under acceleration. Now they have lost it, they have had to make the biggest adjustment to tyres that are suddenly and unsurprisingly wearing a lot more.

Hard cheese. The tyres are the same for everyone.

 
Re: NIKI LAUDA says F1 will lose fans if there continues to be different Grand Prix winners
K1 (IP Logged)
31 May, 2012 08:32
sorry, you misinterpret my point. the tyres do not deliver a 'constant' performance. if they did then we would see different results.

of course the compounds are, TMK, the same but it is the tyre reaction to differing conditions that is proving elusive.

why is it that all teams are having tremendous trouble coming to grips with this factor? why are we discussing this issue as probably the biggest differential so far this year?

 
Re: NIKI LAUDA says F1 will lose fans if there continues to be different Grand Prix winners
crusty_bread (IP Logged)
31 May, 2012 08:55
Williams last year were struggling a lot with tyre wear. Barrichello mentioned it all the time, and it's something we were all acutely aware of on here. People suggested it was due to the suspension and the fault of the low gearbox design, and that maybe the car was not designed around the tyres, which is possibly true. Furthermore, Williams never got the EBD working which cost them relative to the competition in terms of tyre wear.

This year, with the banning of the EBD, and the softening of the tyre compounds, management of them has become much more difficult for everyone, and we are seeing the same comments from other teams that Rubens was making last year. But this doesn't mean the tyres are inconsistent. It just means that managing them is much more critical than last season, which is spicing up the show.

It is testing the limits of teams understanding in this area, and it is a learning process for everyone, with some coping better than others.

With the banning of the EBD and the softening of the compounds, everyone in the same situation at the same time and it's the tyres getting the blame as a result, but as so many teams and drivers ARE able to get the tyres working well, really, the likes of Schumacher just need to sort out their understanding of them and adjust their cars accordingly.

It would be far easier for the teams if Pirelli just hardened up the compounds. For RedBull, they would not they have to design the car around the tyres and could just continue their relentless quest for more downforce. Clearly, RedBull and Newey's forte is aerodynamics rather than mechanical physics, and this year is showing they have less advantage in this area.

Pirelli should not do this though, as otherwise, we would have a 1 obligatory pitstop situation as we had at Monaco.

Yawn.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 31/05/2012 09:06 by crusty_bread.

 
Re: NIKI LAUDA says F1 will lose fans if there continues to be different Grand Prix winners
A.Fant (IP Logged)
31 May, 2012 09:43
Quote:
crusty_bread
Williams last year were struggling a lot with tyre wear. Barrichello mentioned it all the time, and it's something we were all acutely aware of on here. People suggested it was due to the suspension and the fault of the low gearbox design, and that maybe the car was not designed around the tyres, which is possibly true. Furthermore, Williams never got the EBD working which cost them relative to the competition in terms of tyre wear.
This year, with the banning of the EBD, and the softening of the tyre compounds, management of them has become much more difficult for everyone, and we are seeing the same comments from other teams that Rubens was making last year. But this doesn't mean the tyres are inconsistent. It just means that managing them is much more critical than last season, which is spicing up the show.

It is testing the limits of teams understanding in this area, and it is a learning process for everyone, with some coping better than others.

With the banning of the EBD and the softening of the compounds, everyone in the same situation at the same time and it's the tyres getting the blame as a result, but as so many teams and drivers ARE able to get the tyres working well, really, the likes of Schumacher just need to sort out their understanding of them and adjust their cars accordingly.

It would be far easier for the teams if Pirelli just hardened up the compounds. For RedBull, they would not they have to design the car around the tyres and could just continue their relentless quest for more downforce. Clearly, RedBull and Newey's forte is aerodynamics rather than mechanical physics, and this year is showing they have less advantage in this area.

Pirelli should not do this though, as otherwise, we would have a 1 obligatory pitstop situation as we had at Monaco.

Yawn.

Pretty much sums up my views to a t. But I expect nothing less from you Crusty!

 
Re: NIKI LAUDA says F1 will lose fans if there continues to be different Grand Prix winners
K1 (IP Logged)
31 May, 2012 09:46
RBR have struggled somewhat since the EBD's were banned but it would be a mistake to write them off. newey's expertise is in aero but he is also formidable in overall design as well.

every team knew that with reduced downforce that the cars would tend to be oversteery and subsequently suffer with the tyres but i doubt any of them really expected the tyres to give so many problems over such a wide area.

red bull have been able to improve somewhat lately and they are dominating the WCC so far. what will happen is anyones guess but i would like to see the tyres harden up to the extent that the drivers are confident of pushing 100% instead of having to nurse their tyres.

lotus, who have been doing really well and certainly better than i expected, are an example of what happens when they get it wrong. kimi started the race on a set of scrubbed supersofts, they lasted 10 laps!!!! that should not happen.

where this will all finish up? i have no idea but there will be pressure from the midfield to keep the status quo for obvious reasons.

 
Re: NIKI LAUDA says F1 will lose fans if there continues to be different Grand Prix winners
mayhemfunkster (IP Logged)
31 May, 2012 14:47
A recent anecdote from PH about this from a recent "Motor sport" article. Patrick mentioned that Newey was straight away promoted to Chief Designer as it was obvious he was wasted as an aerodynamicist.

Newey was left completley alone on FW14 design while Patrick locked himself in his office to design the new semi-auto gearbox by himself for around 6 weeks I think it was.

Even as far back as FW14, Patrick wasn't directly involved. IT was all Newey..

Quite a talent, eh?!



mayhemlurker ;-)

 
Re: NIKI LAUDA says F1 will lose fans if there continues to be different Grand Prix winners
Mr. Pink (IP Logged)
31 May, 2012 14:20
Holly crap. Patrick designed the whole semi-auto gearbox by himself. (Sm113)

If you ask me he is the genius.



http://img292.imageshack.us/img292/8830/logoqz0.gif
Sir Frank: "It's what we do, we love doing it. It's like oxygen, it fixes you".

 
Re: NIKI LAUDA says F1 will lose fans if there continues to be different Grand Prix winners
31 May, 2012 16:24
Nikki Lauda was a great driver a worthy 3 time champ and a brave guy but he does come out with some @#$%& sometimes.

 
Re: NIKI LAUDA says F1 will lose fans if there continues to be different Grand Prix winners
Ozzy Osbone (IP Logged)
31 May, 2012 21:14
Yes he does but he has earned that right in my view. You get nothing less from Prost, Mansell, Jones, Stewart, Surtees and so on. They all have their view, that is their right. Lauda went up against the best of all time and even after having his head burnt off took it to Prost. So he's earned the right to say whatever the hell he likes in my view. We don't have to like it.

I have sympathy for K1's view here. I can see the point. It does appear slightly random but then the best designer in F1 has his car at the top and arguably the best, most complete F1 driver at the moment holds the title lead. What does that tell us? Yes it's a bit crazy but you know, shake a bottle of full cream milk and guess what happens?

 
Re: NIKI LAUDA says F1 will lose fans if there continues to be different Grand Prix winners
speed (IP Logged)
01 June, 2012 01:09
One simple question:

Can anyone really make out that drivers are not pushing? and can you do that from the info we get from telecasts (no live timing - not sure if that tells anything apart from lap times)? I for one can't. Wouldn't have ever realised it if drivers hadn't complained. So I enjoy it. It's a refreshing change from the almost monotonous driver complaints about "how difficult it is to overtake on this track/we couldn't jump him on stops/blah blah blah..."

Would we be discussing this if the drivers hadn't brought up this issue?

 
Re: NIKI LAUDA says F1 will lose fans if there continues to be different Grand Prix winners
K1 (IP Logged)
01 June, 2012 08:09
yes of course it would've been brought up. keen followers would soon spot top drivers going well one session and rubbish the next. times when it would appear that drivers have an opportunity to make daring passes choose to hold station until they can maybe get a DRS option, another introduction that should have been kept out of the racing.

people are rubbishing lauda when he makes a point. i happen to think that he has some very valid points at times. he has forgotten more about F1 than this entire board collectively ever knew.

 
Re: NIKI LAUDA says F1 will lose fans if there continues to be different Grand Prix winners
crusty_bread (IP Logged)
01 June, 2012 17:12
As the championship nears the end of the season, Lauda will get his rivalries, whether they are ex champs competing or not.

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