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Current Page: 15 of 17
 
Re: Realistic time scale for first upgrade.
Mikef1 (IP Logged)
26 August, 2017 14:05
It's something that has changed in season that's hurting us. We've seen this with Williams before

 
Re: Realistic time scale for first upgrade.
gpl (IP Logged)
26 August, 2017 16:44
Felipe Massa says that Williams is falling behind in the development race, after both its cars failed to progress from Q1 in qualifying for Formula 1's Belgian Grand Prix.

Massa qualified 16th at Spa, and has a five-place grid penalty for speeding under yellows in FP3. He also missed most of Friday's running due to a crash in FP1 that ruled him out of the second session, but claimed his car "is not competitive enough".

"It's quite disappointing to go out of qualifying in Q1," said Massa.

"It shows that the main issues are that the car is not going forward. Others are going forward, we're going backwards.

"It's pretty clear that we need to improve the development, and to improve the pieces we put on the car and to make the car better, which is not what's happening at the moment.

"I'm not used to being out in Q1 to be honest, so I wasn't sure if it was 15th or 16th where you stay [to go through to Q2].

"Anyway, I was happy with my lap time, but the car is not competitive enough."

Stroll: Downforce "not there"



When asked by NBC if this is the new normal for Williams, Massa's team-mate Lance Stroll replied: "I hope not. I think it's very track dependent.

"We clearly see the downforce is not there in the long corners with a lot of load, and combine entry and traction, and we're really lacking a lot.

"That's kind of been the case for the last few events. It's very frustrating - it's not where we wanna be.

"But all I can say is we've gotta keep working, and get rid of that."

Stroll only ran once in Q1 due to a rear wing issue, but although he qualified 18th he will rise to 15th due to grid penalties ahead of him.

"Something broke," Stroll explained. "I think it was the endplate or something. One of those things that happens, just unlucky.

"We couldn't go out for the second run, so that's a shame.

"I don't think there was a huge amount in it, I saw Felipe did his lap and it was only a couple of positions [ahead].

"It was a shame I didn't get the opportunity though to do a proper lap in Q1."

 
Re: Realistic time scale for first upgrade.
Mehryar (IP Logged)
26 August, 2017 17:12
MikeF1,
Would you please explain to us, with your experience in F1 factories that how on earth wind tunnel + CFD data can be 100% matched with ontrack performance in 2014 and 2015, then suddenly 1.5 year later, it is not at all?! I mean as long as we are aware, there's been no switch from our wind tunnel to another in last couple of years, we have not heard about a new super computer being used recently.so how is it possible to see something which was running great, suddenly produces parts with no gain or in our drivers' words "pushes us backwards" ?
-----------

Btw, this is yet another indication that an experienced driver has zero effect on development direction...probably the 100-th example.
Massa is suddenly a terrible driver again as soon as there's rumors about Alonso and Williams.
I'm wondering how many punches Lance was going to take if he was the guy who made 2 big mistakes through 2 days of a weekend.
And the guy is making 6m for this drive.



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Dylan's Together Through Life Hits The Stores.

 
Re: Realistic time scale for first upgrade.
gpl (IP Logged)
26 August, 2017 17:23
If they have gone in the wrong direction the main part of the car they have changed from when it came out the box is going to be the floor.

As you say the car was not to bad 4 or 5th quickest at start of season now the car does not work at all full stop.

 
Re: Realistic time scale for first upgrade.
Mikef1 (IP Logged)
26 August, 2017 17:45
Quote:
Mehryar
MikeF1,
Would you please explain to us, with your experience in F1 factories that how on earth wind tunnel + CFD data can be 100% matched with ontrack performance in 2014 and 2015, then suddenly 1.5 year later, it is not at all?! I mean as long as we are aware, there's been no switch from our wind tunnel to another in last couple of years.

These f1 cars are becoming more and more complicated aerodynamically. When we were desinging an lmp1 car we thought we'd built the best thing ever but we had some issues where our flow structures had become so complicated that our cfd simplified the effect and gave us a false reading, even though the year before our cars matched track and wind tunnel perfectly.

F1 cars are even more fickle as the flow is passed from wing to body to wing as opposed to one surface which makes it harder to predict in all dimensions.

In essence, every time the cars take a step in complexity, the cfd and wind tunnel become less intelligent. It's how your tech team react to those changes that win championships. You could argue that Ferrari won that race, as Mercedes car was too touch and go.

It's easy to get frustrated with paddy but this is not on him, and I'm sure the team is working hard to overcome it, but when you don't understand your car as we dont, it's impossible to understand why updates do and don't work, and to understand how to make performance jumps again. It took us 7 months to find out where our car was going wrong in lmp1 and we'd already designed a lot of the next year's cars on that exact concept. That made us essentially start again and bin 6 months of hard work.

 
Re: Realistic time scale for first upgrade.
Mehryar (IP Logged)
26 August, 2017 18:58
Thanks for the info, Mike.



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Dylan's Together Through Life Hits The Stores.

 
Re: Realistic time scale for first upgrade.
Rumblestrip (IP Logged)
03 September, 2017 12:31
Mike, really interesting and explains a lot about why all these extra aero devices sometimes work and sometimes don't.

The advantage of having Paddy on board is that he has worked in a team where money allowed several different development teams to work on different ideas simultaneously. In a team with a small budget he can therefore work from his experience of what gives the best bang for the Bucks. At present it seems he thinks the key areas to improve our lap times are rear downforce, more rear downforce and just possibly a faster driver. (I don't think Alonso intends coming to Williams but although Claire denies Alonso talks she also initially denied talking to Toto about releasing Valteri.)

Also the in house gearbox must give advantages over F1F1 - although watching Massa's Friday cockpit video our car seemed to run out of torque/ gearing at about 312kph and to only gradually push from there to 331kph. Tricky cog choices.

I cannot work out whether Massa's new gearbox and rear suspension differs in any way from the previous one. Are there any photos? Massa changing his gearbox, but not Lance, may be down to Lance having a couple of early offs at the start of the season and therefore car 18 not yet qualifying for a penalty-free gearbox change, unlike car 19.

 
Re: Realistic time scale for first upgrade.
gpl (IP Logged)
03 September, 2017 12:41
Are we sure one of our cars has the new gearbox?? any pics please

 
Re: Realistic time scale for first upgrade.
gpl (IP Logged)
04 September, 2017 14:28
Mght be silly idea/question but wind/air pressure over/under the 40 still does not give us
the predicted down force but add the water element and hey presto so what does
that change on the cars dynamics????

Could be a big break for the team if they can figure it out.

Does it make the pressure heavier and works the floor and other elements harder make
them flex more if so does that mean the car elements are being
constructed to stiff maybe?? and need that extra flex or maybe it altered
the speed of the air/water mix over/under the car and changed the dynamic.

 
Re: Realistic time scale for first upgrade.
Rumblestrip (IP Logged)
04 September, 2017 17:30
Well on wet tyres our car floor would sit an extra three millimetres higher off the ground, maybe more, because the tread increases the overall diameter of the tyre. So if the back end is struggling because the gearbox is set low and disrupting the airflow, the wet tyres would allow a slightly smoother airflow under/around the backend and to the diffusers and this is where 45% of a car's downforce is generated. I suppose that would favour Williams more than other teams as we have the lowest gearbox.

We wouldn't get that advantage on Intermediates. Can someone see what tyres we ran whenever we were more competitive in Qualifying? That is, did we only see the advantage on wets?

There again we seemed to run a lot more rear wing than certain others and that would have helped us qualifying in the wet ( more downforce) but undone us in the race in the dry (more drag). On race day we were lacking top speed on the main straight. Stroll couldn't make inroads on Ocon until the DRS opened and even then he didn't quite have enough speed to be confident of being ahead at the chicane entry. So it could be a combination of these things.

There was talk of Red Bull having a slightly floppy front wing that sits at standard height in scrutinieering but deforms lower, to get closer to the road and hence generate more front downforce, under 200mph of "static" load. But who knows if that is true!? It might work but presumably would mean the front wing was less strong and hence more vulnerable to in-race damage, which, as we saw with Max yesterday would be a definite risk. It might be faster if not involved in any minor scrapes, but a 45-50 second penalty if another car gets too close. Both Red Bull and FIF1 seem prone to losing front end plates.... We don't.

 
Re: Realistic time scale for first upgrade.
tomazy (IP Logged)
04 September, 2017 18:38
Quote:
gpl
Are we sure one of our cars has the new gearbox?? any pics please

I for one have not seen any evidance of the new gearbox or susspension in Monza.

 
Re: Realistic time scale for first upgrade.
TerraNova19 (IP Logged)
04 September, 2017 19:28
Quote:
tomazy
Quote:
gpl
Are we sure one of our cars has the new gearbox?? any pics please

I for one have not seen any evidance of the new gearbox or susspension in Monza.

I have got a message from @ScarbTech. He thinks it will not be any new gearbox this season.

All the resources are made available for 2018 car.

But some rear suspension updates/changes could be in place.


I think (guess) they increased the rigidity of the new gearboxes (being made from aluminum it should be more easy / cost effective). A little more material in the right places could make wonders smiling smiley



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 04/09/2017 19:38 by TerraNova19.

 
Re: Realistic time scale for first upgrade.
tomazy (IP Logged)
04 September, 2017 19:40
Quote:
TerraNova19
Quote:
tomazy
Quote:
gpl
Are we sure one of our cars has the new gearbox?? any pics please

I for one have not seen any evidance of the new gearbox or susspension in Monza.

I have got a message from @ScarbTech. He thinks it will not be any new gearbox this season.

All the resources are made available for 2018 car.

But some rear suspension updates/changes could be in place.

Thanks for the info. There probably can't be big changes to rear susspension geometry without new mouting points on the gearbox. I wonder what did they test in Hugary test? Maybe some tehnology demonstrator bodge job that is to havy to race?

So all hopes are on FW41, lets hope she will be fast.

 
Re: Realistic time scale for first upgrade.
gpl (IP Logged)
04 September, 2017 20:22
Good info guys

So maybe we need to raise the gearbox area



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/09/2017 20:30 by gpl.

 
Re: Realistic time scale for first upgrade.
Duffer (IP Logged)
05 September, 2017 10:37
gpl, are you suggesting a sprinkler system on the underside of the car? 19mm poly tubing, I could even do it for them!



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Re: Realistic time scale for first upgrade.
gpl (IP Logged)
05 September, 2017 11:29
Yes yes thats it problem sorted.

 
Re: Realistic time scale for first upgrade.
gpl (IP Logged)
10 September, 2017 13:44
I really hope that williams have been checking the wet qualie data from Monza
and have a few things/set ups to try out.

They must of learnt something from that session or are getting an understanding of why the car was so good in the wet and back to average ish in the dry.

 
Re: Realistic time scale for first upgrade.
TMT (IP Logged)
10 September, 2017 14:21
So are Williams now back to being the 4th fastest car?

 
Re: Realistic time scale for first upgrade.
Mehryar (IP Logged)
10 September, 2017 15:24
Gpl, reserve your optimistic hopes.

Paddy after wet sessions: we don't know why the car was so good in wets.
Massa about Singapore: it will be a hard track for us.

The result for me is Singapore will be something like Monaco again.
Monza race showed we simply had more wings than rivals in quali so performed better.even if there was a magic settings for suspension, still our car lacks ultimate downforce for such tracks.



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Dylan's Together Through Life Hits The Stores.

 
Re: Realistic time scale for first upgrade.
TMT (IP Logged)
10 September, 2017 15:31
Yep Singapore will be a bad track for Williams.

Current Page: 15 of 17

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