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Re: Williams 2018 not looking good
Mikef1 (IP Logged)
14 December, 2017 01:01
If this transpires to be true. I think I will just go follow bottas' career for a while. I was pretty much already there but this situation with stroll and now Kubica is getting pretty shitty. It's the same thing they did to Barrichello. String him along until the pay driver cheque landed. Force India have less budget, better drivers, better base platform for a car. Williams running around in circles yet again.

 
Re: Williams 2018 not looking good
Carinni (IP Logged)
14 December, 2017 01:28
Quote:
Mikef1
If this transpires to be true. I think I will just go follow bottas' career for a while. I was pretty much already there but this situation with stroll and now Kubica is getting pretty shitty. It's the same thing they did to Barrichello. String him along until the pay driver cheque landed. Force India have less budget, better drivers, better base platform for a car. Williams running around in circles yet again.

Williams has a faster car than fi at the beginning of the season, just lost in the development race. Hope Paddy may build a winning chassis with the extra money, contrary to many of this thread, I feel better n more interested in Williams in 2018. I think if they signed Sirotkin, really on the right path, though with an ordinary drivers lineup, no chance to win, but a winning chassis is essential to go back to glory days, it is the correct first step. Meaningless to get a 3rd trophy, if Paddy really isnít aim at best of the rest. In f1, no money no talk. It didnít work in 2012 with the paid Cheque, but it doesnít mean it also wonít work this time, with new technical people.
I do believe massa extracted the most from the car this year, but I also agree with the team to take money instead of talent at this moment, keeping massa at the best can only give u an one more year of best of the rest. Williams is lack of a winning chassis at the moment, getting a top driver is not quite worthwhile.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 14/12/2017 01:37 by Carinni.

 
Re: Williams 2018 not looking good
Anderis (IP Logged)
14 December, 2017 09:08
Quote:
Marco Cardoso
Hahah Anderis you really think that with Stroll or Sirotkin you will win a race as in 2012.
Maldonado was better then this two togheter.
Please, don't misinterpret what I've said.

I only wanted to remind that 2012 was nowhere near as bad as many people predicted BEFORE the season and, in fact, in many way better than many other seasons in recent years.

I also disagree about Maldonado being better than these two together. Certainly not the 2012 version od Maldonado.
Stroll scored comparable amount of points in 2017 to Maldonado in 2012 and the 2012 car was better IMO. Also Stroll's 2nd seasons is likely going to be better than 1st.
Sirotkin had more impressive first 2 seasons in GP2 than Maldonado. There is no reason to think he is going to be performing worse than Pastor in F1 at this point. At least give him a chance.

 
Re: Williams 2018 not looking good
Marco Cardoso (IP Logged)
14 December, 2017 11:45
Kubica will be at Grove today.
Probably to be informed that the team liked Russian money better.



https://goo.gl/images/VESYsm

 
Re: Williams 2018 not looking good
Ozzy Osbone (IP Logged)
14 December, 2017 12:52
Russians did BREXIT as well apparently. Some @#$%& will believe anything if the truth doesn't suit them. Just blame it on the Russians.

 
Re: Williams 2018 not looking good
Mikef1 (IP Logged)
14 December, 2017 13:09
Quote:
Carinni
Quote:
Mikef1
If this transpires to be true. I think I will just go follow bottas' career for a while. I was pretty much already there but this situation with stroll and now Kubica is getting pretty shitty. It's the same thing they did to Barrichello. String him along until the pay driver cheque landed. Force India have less budget, better drivers, better base platform for a car. Williams running around in circles yet again.

Williams has a faster car than fi at the beginning of the season, just lost in the development race. Hope Paddy may build a winning chassis with the extra money, contrary to many of this thread, I feel better n more interested in Williams in 2018. I think if they signed Sirotkin, really on the right path, though with an ordinary drivers lineup, no chance to win, but a winning chassis is essential to go back to glory days, it is the correct first step. Meaningless to get a 3rd trophy, if Paddy really isnít aim at best of the rest. In f1, no money no talk. It didnít work in 2012 with the paid Cheque, but it doesnít mean it also wonít work this time, with new technical people.
I do believe massa extracted the most from the car this year, but I also agree with the team to take money instead of talent at this moment, keeping massa at the best can only give u an one more year of best of the rest. Williams is lack of a winning chassis at the moment, getting a top driver is not quite worthwhile.

Every year Williams have stopped their development early to focus on the next car. It would not surprise me in the slightest if once again we hold our breath for the fruit of their labour and all we get is another copy and paste Williams. I'm less interested than ever in the next set of cars to be released. Especially the Williams. Teams like McLaren and Renault will likely be the teams to get the most attention as they have the most to prove. Williams is going to be an afterthought next season unless Sirotkin turns out to be Russian Alonso. I've not heard anything to suggest that he will be though.

 
Re: Williams 2018 not looking good
Carinni (IP Logged)
14 December, 2017 14:34
I donít think a driver can make a big difference. Massa already done a brilliant job this year. Winning chassis is much more important. Maybe paddy has the confidence, so he knows what the team needs most now, thatís development money, not a top driver. Of coz, if Sirotkin is Russia Alonso, thatís even better, like winning a jackpot! Ha ha



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 14/12/2017 14:37 by Carinni.

 
Re: Williams 2018 not looking good
GiorgioF1 (IP Logged)
14 December, 2017 14:59
Quote:
Carinni
Maybe paddy has the confidence, so he knows what the team needs most now, thatís development money, not a top driver.

Force India disagree. This is EXACTLY the reason we are nowhere for so many years. For almost a decade Paddy worked with drivers like Hamilton, Rosberg and Button. He will now have two paydrivers with a combined F1 experience of 1 friggin year. One of them will be driving his first Grand Prix. Williams need to finally have some balls to get two quick promising drivers who can deliver constantly. Recently we had Rosberg who turned out to be a World Champion eventually. We had Hulkenberg who is still considered a great driver, he bring awesome points to Renault constantly - we let him go after 2010 after he got Pole Position in the wet on Interlagos.

We have the best engine right now. If it means some debt, fine. Just take the risk. Lets make some TV time so its easier to get new sponsors, lets make some positive noise about ourselves. If the results come, so will the sponsorship money and WCC money.

At least show US, their fans for so many years, that they still have it in them.

It is harder and harder to belivie after so many years.

Otherwise the future looks bleak.

BTW. [imgur.com]

Too bad he probably isn't the one deciding anymore.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 14/12/2017 15:07 by GiorgioF1.

 
Re: Williams 2018 not looking good
Carinni (IP Logged)
14 December, 2017 15:43
Quote:
GiorgioF1
Quote:
Carinni
Maybe paddy has the confidence, so he knows what the team needs most now, thatís development money, not a top driver.

Force India disagree. This is EXACTLY the reason we are nowhere for so many years. For almost a decade Paddy worked with drivers like Hamilton, Rosberg and Button. He will now have two paydrivers with a combined F1 experience of 1 friggin year. One of them will be driving his first Grand Prix. Williams need to finally have some balls to get two quick promising drivers who can deliver constantly. Recently we had Rosberg who turned out to be a World Champion eventually. We had Hulkenberg who is still considered a great driver, he bring awesome points to Renault constantly - we let him go after 2010 after he got Pole Position in the wet on Interlagos.

We have the best engine right now. If it means some debt, fine. Just take the risk. Lets make some TV time so its easier to get new sponsors, lets make some positive noise about ourselves. If the results come, so will the sponsorship money and WCC money.

At least show US, their fans for so many years, that they still have it in them.

It is harder and harder to belivie after so many years.

Otherwise the future looks bleak.

BTW. [imgur.com]

Too bad he probably isn't the one deciding anymore.

We are nowhere because of drivers? So what happen to McLaren for the past three years?
What happened to Ferrari from 2009-2016, especially 2014? For 5 years, Alonso still canít help Ferrari to produce a winning chassis, so I donít believe a top driver help chassis development that much. If Rosberg is not driving a Mercedes n Hamilton dnf, Do u believe he can be a world champion? Many can be a world champion from 2014-2016 if they have been driving a Mercedes. Certainly not matching the fact we have oberved



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 14/12/2017 15:52 by Carinni.

 
Re: Williams 2018 not looking good
Anderis (IP Logged)
14 December, 2017 16:00
The reason Force India keeps outperforming Williams is that they've accepted to be a midfield team and they operate accordingly, which is apparently a more efficient way of spending money than what Williams does- doing things like a big team with more staff and more stuff done at home instead of being bought from others but with half of the budget of other teams who do stuff like that.
Clone Perez and Ocon and put them in Williams FW40 and we're still behind Force India in WCC this year. I dare to say that our WCC result would've been the same no matter if we had 2 Hamiltons or 2 Strolls this year. Hamilton would've scored maybe 2x as much as Massa which would be not enough to jump Force India in the standings.

We had some paydriverless driver pairings in the last 10 years but it was a so-called paydriver who delivered our only race win in this time period.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 14/12/2017 16:01 by Anderis.

 
Re: Williams 2018 not looking good
Marco Cardoso (IP Logged)
14 December, 2017 17:17
You need the all Package. Chassis and Drivers.

It's a team effort if you sacrifice one or the other you'll be passed by other teams!



https://goo.gl/images/VESYsm

 
Re: Williams 2018 not looking good
GiorgioF1 (IP Logged)
14 December, 2017 19:06
Quote:
We are nowhere because of drivers? So what happen to McLaren for the past three years?
What happened to Ferrari from 2009-2016, especially 2014? For 5 years, Alonso still canít help Ferrari to produce a winning chassis, so I donít believe a top driver help chassis development that much. If Rosberg is not driving a Mercedes n Hamilton dnf, Do u believe he can be a world champion? Many can be a world champion from 2014-2016 if they have been driving a Mercedes. Certainly not matching the fact we have oberved

Mclaren had Honda engine. That happened. Ferrari was fighting for championships in 2010 and 2012 with Alonso and had multiple race wins. They always were there or therabout.

I didnt say we would be fighting for championships, no way in hell would that happen if we are still a Mercedes customer. I said that we would be scoring good points with both drivers and should be before Force India with our higher budget.

Quote:
Clone Perez and Ocon and put them in Williams FW40 and we're still behind Force India in WCC this year. I dare to say that our WCC result would've been the same no matter if we had 2 Hamiltons or 2 Strolls this year. Hamilton would've scored maybe 2x as much as Massa which would be not enough to jump Force India in the standings.

So if we would have 2 equally skilled good drivers like Ocon and Perez, there will be absoluteley no change to fight with Force India in races? FW40 had potential, it was hidden because we had Stroll and still good but not the same Massa like in 2008. Better drivers would easily extracted more from this car. Im not saying that we would have jumped to 3rd place or anything, but we could fight for fourth.

You are also forgetting that Renault and Toro Rosso could have easily jumped us this year if they would have someone like Sainz instead of Palmer from the beginning and didnt have engine issues during the season. Toro Rosso would albo be a big threat if they would have stable rooster for the whole season of Sainz and Kvyat and didnt have like 40 places worth of penalties for like a half a season. Alonso and Vandoorne would be dancing around us if they would have a half-decent engine. We were lucky not to be 7, 8 or ever ninth. Next year Renault with Budkowskis help, Mclaren with Renault engines and even Toro Rosso if Honda get their act together could be before us. Haas could be aswell.

Other embarassing thing is that we were, like Paddy said, outdeveloped by Force India during the season having more budget that them. Clearly they are a better organized team operating with less money and have more better people than we do. And still managed to have the likes of Perez and imo the future star Ocon.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 14/12/2017 19:17 by GiorgioF1.

 
Re: Williams 2018 not looking good
Anderis (IP Logged)
14 December, 2017 19:48
Quote:
GiorgioF1
Quote:
Clone Perez and Ocon and put them in Williams FW40 and we're still behind Force India in WCC this year. I dare to say that our WCC result would've been the same no matter if we had 2 Hamiltons or 2 Strolls this year. Hamilton would've scored maybe 2x as much as Massa which would be not enough to jump Force India in the standings.

So if we would have 2 equally skilled good drivers like Ocon and Perez, there will be absoluteley no change to fight with Force India in races? FW40 had potential, it was hidden because we had Stroll and still good but not the same Massa like in 2008. Better drivers would easily extracted more from this car. Im not saying that we would have jumped to 3rd place or anything, but we could fight for fourth.

You are also forgetting that Renault and Toro Rosso could have easily jumped us this year if they would have someone like Sainz instead of Palmer from the beginning and didnt have engine issues during the season. Toro Rosso would albo be a big threat if they would have stable rooster for the whole season of Sainz and Kvyat and didnt have like 40 places worth of penalties for like a half a season. Alonso and Vandoorne would be dancing around us if they would have a half-decent engine. We were lucky not to be 7, 8 or ever ninth. Next year Renault with Budkowskis help, Mclaren with Renault engines and even Toro Rosso if Honda get their act together could be before us. Haas could be aswell.

Other embarassing thing is that we were, like Paddy said, outdeveloped by Force India during the season having more budget that them. Clearly they are a better organized team operating with less money and have more better people than we do. And still managed to have the likes of Perez and imo the future star Ocon.
Please, don't assume that I'm just forgetting things because it's not the case.

You seem to not understand the point I'm making (or maybe you do but you try to spin things around for the sake of argument). Yes, Renault and Toro Rosso coulda, woulda, shoulda beat us this season but the FACT is that they DID NOT. Stroll and Massa were good enough to secure a better WCC place than them. It's a fact that is unfair to ignore. Moreover, the points table suggest that had we replaced Massa with another paydriver who was more or less as good as Stroll, the final outcome would've been the same.

Yes, there are some close seasons in which a proper driver pairing can make a difference to the final outcome, like 2012, but there are also seasons in which they do very little difference, which was the case in 2017.

And what is beyond my doubt is that we did NOT lose to Force India this year because of the driver pairing. I don't believe that Perez is THAT MUCH better than Massa to outscore him 100-43 in a comparable car. The battle could've been closer in particular races, but in the long run, we would get beaten no matter who sat in those cars.

Williams has had many questionable driver choices over years, but the only seasons it seems to have made any difference were 2009 and 2012.

Yeah, Stroll-Sirotkin might turn out to be the worse driver line-up on the grid, but the consequences of it seem to be overrated.

 
Re: Williams 2018 not looking good
Gunk (IP Logged)
14 December, 2017 20:09
Quote:
Anderis

Williams has had many questionable driver choices over years, but the only seasons it seems to have made any difference were 2009 and 2012.

Actually, that's not quite accurate, Anderis. But I won't digress because you make my point very well. On the few occasions we have produced a reasonable car, there has been no one to drive it.

So I might ask that what is the point of hiring Paddy Lowe at all if, as is evident, we are only going give the car to a couple of bozos?

We might as well give up and open a chip shop.

 
Re: Williams 2018 not looking good
Mikef1 (IP Logged)
14 December, 2017 21:13
Quote:
Carinni
I donít think a driver can make a big difference. Massa already done a brilliant job this year. Winning chassis is much more important. Maybe paddy has the confidence, so he knows what the team needs most now, thatís development money, not a top driver. Of coz, if Sirotkin is Russia Alonso, thatís even better, like winning a jackpot! Ha ha

The difference between stroll and massa proves what a difference a driver can make. About 8 tenths a lap if you get a really @#$%& one. Maybe you add a few tenths for a driver like Alonso.

 
Re: Williams 2018 not looking good
Damon96 (IP Logged)
14 December, 2017 21:33
Quote:
Mikef1
Quote:
Carinni
I donít think a driver can make a big difference. Massa already done a brilliant job this year. Winning chassis is much more important. Maybe paddy has the confidence, so he knows what the team needs most now, thatís development money, not a top driver. Of coz, if Sirotkin is Russia Alonso, thatís even better, like winning a jackpot! Ha ha

The difference between stroll and massa proves what a difference a driver can make. About 8 tenths a lap if you get a really @#$%& one. Maybe you add a few tenths for a driver like Alonso.

Trying to engineer 8 tenths will cost far more than Massa's salary or equivalent driver, Williams haven't had the ability to design a car 8 tenths faster than anyone else since the early to mid 90's when we had the likes of Mansell, Prost and Hill.... We haven't been able to get a car to be 8 tenths faster than Force India since 2014 and then we had Massa and Bottas.

 
Re: Williams 2018 not looking good
GiorgioF1 (IP Logged)
14 December, 2017 22:17
Quote:
You seem to not understand the point I'm making (or maybe you do but you try to spin things around for the sake of argument). Yes, Renault and Toro Rosso coulda, woulda, shoulda beat us this season but the FACT is that they DID NOT. Stroll and Massa were good enough to secure a better WCC place than them. It's a fact that is unfair to ignore. Moreover, the points table suggest that had we replaced Massa with another paydriver who was more or less as good as Stroll, the final outcome would've been the same.
Yeah, Stroll-Sirotkin might turn out to be the worse driver line-up on the grid, but the consequences of it seem to be overrated.

Ok, I think i get You. Like You said, we did secure the 5th place, while the other team only got themselves to blame for their positions.
Can we at least agree that the situation with Renault, Toro Rosso and to some degree, McLaren was pretty abnormal this year and if the things went like it supposed to in normal F1 season (and i mean not the attrocious reliability of the Renault engines and pretty normal thing during the season - no driver swapping) our position would be much lower in the standings?

I know what the end result was, but if we had to make future predictions baring in mind what the current situation is (losing Avanade and Randstad, team debt, not being certain that we can develop the car during the season cause of the constant money issues, other teams getting it together, uncertain replacement of Massa) wouldnt You say that, unless Paddy and De Boer make an awesome car next year and Sirotkin shows that spark and talent we all hope he has - we are looking at the lower spot in WCC next year? Wouldnt two good constant and quick drivers be a better perspective for the future if the car isnt good enough?



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 14/12/2017 22:19 by GiorgioF1.

 
Re: Williams 2018 not looking good
Mehryar (IP Logged)
14 December, 2017 22:37
So all said, what will you do?
Williams team of management are a couple of idiots, let's think that way but I want to know what you guys do if you were in their shoes?

Sacrifice a driver with bigger budget who beats the other one in test because if a romantic comeback happening?

Sacrificing him for a tv commentator?

Sacrifice him for a Sauber refugee who never ever show anything special? Atleast the Russian MAY prove to be better.

Given our options (which were the same since Alonso extended his contract), I like to know what else you guys can offer to the team other than the 2 Russians who have a big money behind them too.



http://img150.imageshack.us/img150/1095/mehryarsigyo7.gif

Dylan's Together Through Life Hits The Stores.

 
Re: Williams 2018 not looking good
Mikef1 (IP Logged)
14 December, 2017 22:49
If we inisit on pay drivers we should use their money to poach a Peter prodmau or someone similar. Aero has always been our problem. Paddy is not an aero man. If say investing in some serious guys from other teams that work across aero would be the absolute best move for Williams at this point. In 2014 we had a better chassis than the McLaren. They hired peter. 3 years on and huge progress in the aero area, and many people suggest they are now the car to beat engines being equal. I just can't see Paddy having that silver bullet effect as someone who is not aero oriented

 
Re: Williams 2018 not looking good
Marco Cardoso (IP Logged)
14 December, 2017 22:57
Quote:
Mehryar
So all said, what will you do?
Williams team of management are a couple of idiots, let's think that way but I want to know what you guys do if you were in their shoes?

Sacrifice a driver with bigger budget who beats the other one in test because if a romantic comeback happening?

Sacrificing him for a tv commentator?

Sacrifice him for a Sauber refugee who never ever show anything special? Atleast the Russian MAY prove to be better.

Given our options (which were the same since Alonso extended his contract), I like to know what else you guys can offer to the team other than the 2 Russians who have a big money behind them too.

Williams management wants money!!! Wherlien would make Sirotkin seem like an amateur, he did half a day testing and gets the seat like is Senna! F•£Ä not even Senna got the seat from Williams when he tested for one day!

Driver with bigger budget?? The team has to have the budget to get the driver! At least a team that want's to be in the top5 or even top3.

Hey, Stroll also MAY be faster than the Russian.

That's why no top driver will ever come to Williams, they know the team operates this way and good drivers get payed not the other way around!

I see the World is full of sucessful brands with employees that pay to work there.



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