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Technically what is wrong with FW41???
hemorrhage (IP Logged)
10 March, 2018 23:03
Any idea guys??

 
Re: Technically what is wrong with FW41???
gpl (IP Logged)
11 March, 2018 09:54
What right with it??.

Robert said it had some very strong area,s on the new car.

Maybe the position of the central main weight is to high or to far forward or back.
But i would not think so Paddy should know from Merc what is optimal position.

Maybe construction of the chassis is all wrong again Paddy should now what works.

No idea really, good to guess tho keeps us interested till Aus.

 
Re: Technically what is wrong with FW41???
Mehryar (IP Logged)
11 March, 2018 09:57
Clear answer by Paddy Lowe:

“We’re doing a lot of experiments. The limitation in the car at the moment is corner entry instability. That’s quite often the limitation in the car to be honest, but it’s particularly exaggerated at the moment with what we’re running.”

“If we can unlock some progress there, we will find a lot more lap time than we’ve got at the moment because some other aspects of the car are working really, really strongly through other phases of the corner.”

“Mostly these things involve a strong aerodynamic element, but the solutions involve everything from suspension to tires and everything else. So it’s always multi-dimensional.”

“I think a large degree of change both in the team that delivered the car and the car itself, that can take a while to develop and optimize. I think we can make a lot more progress within the season, and even into next. It’s still early in the potential I think that’s in the team.

“I think the correlation is pretty sound. Actually, Williams’ ability to measure aerodynamic performance is one of the strongest I’ve seen. The technology and the people together is very strong.”

“We’ve got a great wind tunnel, it’s well up there with the best. So we’ve got good tools and we make good use of them, but I think there’s potential to do even more,” added Lowe.



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Re: Technically what is wrong with FW41???
Mehryar (IP Logged)
11 March, 2018 10:03
This answer matches trackside observations.the cars with better front ends, like RBR, were the most exciting.

No wonder they are changing nose, front wing configurations.clearly they are looking for a fix there.

also this interview is quite encouraging imo.he is positive about wind tunnel colleration which alot of us were questioning.Also you read there's a big potential in the concept to be unlocked so we can be hopeful even if in first few races we are in trouble, things can change dramatically as the season progress.



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Re: Technically what is wrong with FW41???
gpl (IP Logged)
11 March, 2018 10:11
This bit stands out to me could be loads of areas wrong on the new car.


“Mostly these things involve a strong aerodynamic element, but the solutions involve everything from suspension to tires and everything else. So it’s always multi-dimensiona
l.”



It could turn out to be one big turkey or it could turn out to be a Swan.
All i will say is if this car is not 1.5 seconds quicker by Spain i will
have serious doubts of the FW41 design.

Where that will leave the team if this car fails does not bare thinking about

So fingers crossed big time that the base of this new car is sound and true.

 
Re: Technically what is wrong with FW41???
Mehryar (IP Logged)
11 March, 2018 10:15
Gpl again you surprise me with an exact number like you asked for a gap of exact 1.2sec with top runners.
And 1.5 sec faster than what? 1.19.1? I think they can go 1 sec faster already if they wanted.all the teams could go allt quicker than what they set.



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Re: Technically what is wrong with FW41???
Znappe (IP Logged)
11 March, 2018 10:27
The car is a mix between Red Bulls high rake philosophy and last years Ferrari sidepod design with other ideas like insane sidepod undercut etc.
Clearly we have gone for a big aero efficiency and bigger downforce compared to our other cars which is giving us the problems.

Apart from what Paddy said about the issues i hope that the increased df wont chew the tyres too much (do you guys remeber 2010-2012 Merc?).

Almost all the teams had this issue during testing with the tyres being shredded after some stints and the newly resurfaced tarmac in Barcelona wasnt as abbrassive as it will be on the other circuits.

Its safe to guess that we will be using the sim ALOT now and some fixes will be made but if they will work is another question.
We will get the real answers in fp's in Melbourne but i think we will be searching for the answers even in FP2 there instead of fine-tune the car for qualy and the race like other teams will be doing, judging how manu test sessions now we spend with understanding the tyres/car.

If our fixes wont work from the start we will be very far behind, even if the car will be fast on paper, when you have issues with getting into the corners and out of them, even Sauber could be faster if they find good setup faster then us.

 
Re: Technically what is wrong with FW41???
gpl (IP Logged)
11 March, 2018 10:37
Quote:
Mehryar
Gpl again you surprise me with an exact number like you asked for a gap of exact 1.2sec with top runners.
And 1.5 sec faster than what? 1.19.1? I think they can go 1 sec faster already if they wanted.all the teams could go allt quicker than what they set.


I am not going to debate this with you i do not need to i am quite comfortable
with my own facts and figures and have been more accurate than any other poster here.
when 99% of you guys were calling me an idiot by me saying the car was not working i knew all along it had problems but i am no engineer or Paddy to explain what.

So i hope for 1.5 seconds increase in pace from what ever it can do today.


You have a nasty habit of asking people this all the time gets on my nerves.




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/03/2018 10:41 by gpl.

 
Re: Technically what is wrong with FW41???
Andrew Hooper (IP Logged)
11 March, 2018 10:57
I am please that the FW41 has seen the Williams team try and improve their design under the 2017 rules and push the boundaries from the flow of air from the front wing as well as the bargeboards and the elements at the front of the floor and the radiator air intake design.

The only major design area that has seen the FW41 go a separate route is the front suspension layout. Whether this is impacting on the front end performance of the car I am mot sure. They are still somewhat behind in the front wing design but I am sure that they will move ahead with this as the season progresses.

Overall I am please with how the team has tried to push ahead but it all comes down to how those they are challenging have moved forward as well.

 
Re: Technically what is wrong with FW41???
Mikef1 (IP Logged)
11 March, 2018 11:27
Quote:
gpl
This bit stands out to me could be loads of areas wrong on the new car.


“Mostly these things involve a strong aerodynamic element, but the solutions involve everything from suspension to tires and everything else. So it’s always multi-dimensiona
l.”



It could turn out to be one big turkey or it could turn out to be a Swan.
All i will say is if this car is not 1.5 seconds quicker by Spain i will
have serious doubts of the FW41 design.

Where that will leave the team if this car fails does not bare thinking about

So fingers crossed big time that the base of this new car is sound and true.

Hi GPL.

You took Paddy's quote out of context here. What he actually says is.

some other aspects of the car are working really, really strongly through other phases of the corner. Mostly these things involve a strong aerodynamic element.

He then goes on to discuss the resolution as.

the solutions involve everything from suspension to tires and everything else. So it's always multi-dimensional.

As such, this indicates that the car has a strong aerodynamic platform, which is representitive in its lap time on the soft, but that the tyres are the problem.

To put this in further perspective.

The team set a very competitive lap on soft tyres, you need a fast car to set the time we did. Fact.

Further evidence of the good aeroynamic platform is that on Launch paddy said they set ambitious targets which were met. He now says we have the best aero correlation he has ever seen. Aerodynamics is not the problem...

The reason we didn't set a 1.18 or below is because we couldn't switch on the lower tyres. (Supersoft, Ultrasoft and Hypersoft.)

From my personal experience with race cars, this comes from mechanical and setup issues which Paddy confirms. There are 10 variables from a setup perspective that directly influence the performance of a tyre.

What influences whether you get those variables right is the data, and the driver feedback. With our drivers, we don't get valuable feedback, so we have to rely on data alone which almost isn't good enough. Sometimes what a driver wants and what data suggests is opposite, but it's generally favorable to go with the driver feedback.

With regards to your 1.5 seconds quicker, that's a mental statement. If we were 1.5 seconds quicker on the soft tyres, we would have the fastest f1 car in history. it is not performance time to find in the car itself, but to have the car work with the tyres.

Many teams have been hampered by this. Red Bull, Mercedes, Williams and Force India all reportedly had big issues working the softer tyres over a lap. THis is due to the soft surface and low temps, but Williams problems are exaggerated by inexperienced drivers. This is why kubica was able to shine.

To summarise,

Aerodynamic platform, Good.
Setups - where the most time can be found.
Problem - Drivers.

 
Re: Technically what is wrong with FW41???
RMRC (IP Logged)
11 March, 2018 11:49
Paddy: “Mostly these things involve a strong aerodynamic element, but the solutions involve everything from suspension to tires and everything else. So it’s always multi-dimensional.”

Kubica: "The car has some very powerful areas but, in the meantime, we need to work on some issues which I am sure we will get on top of. If we do that then the driveability and also the confidence of the driver will be higher."


My read:


limitation in the car: corner entry instability
strong aerodynamic element: Front wing ??

Braking causing aero instability when turning.
solution??: New front wing and front suspension.

 
Re: Technically what is wrong with FW41???
gpl (IP Logged)
11 March, 2018 12:37
Quote:
Mikef1
Quote:
gpl
This bit stands out to me could be loads of areas wrong on the new car.


“Mostly these things involve a strong aerodynamic element, but the solutions involve everything from suspension to tires and everything else. So it’s always multi-dimensiona
l.”



It could turn out to be one big turkey or it could turn out to be a Swan.
All i will say is if this car is not 1.5 seconds quicker by Spain i will
have serious doubts of the FW41 design.

Where that will leave the team if this car fails does not bare thinking about

So fingers crossed big time that the base of this new car is sound and true.

Hi GPL.

You took Paddy's quote out of context here. What he actually says is.

some other aspects of the car are working really, really strongly through other phases of the corner. Mostly these things involve a strong aerodynamic element.

He then goes on to discuss the resolution as.

the solutions involve everything from suspension to tires and everything else. So it's always multi-dimensional.

As such, this indicates that the car has a strong aerodynamic platform, which is representitive in its lap time on the soft, but that the tyres are the problem.

To put this in further perspective.

The team set a very competitive lap on soft tyres, you need a fast car to set the time we did. Fact.

Further evidence of the good aeroynamic platform is that on Launch paddy said they set ambitious targets which were met. He now says we have the best aero correlation he has ever seen. Aerodynamics is not the problem...

The reason we didn't set a 1.18 or below is because we couldn't switch on the lower tyres. (Supersoft, Ultrasoft and Hypersoft.)

From my personal experience with race cars, this comes from mechanical and setup issues which Paddy confirms. There are 10 variables from a setup perspective that directly influence the performance of a tyre.

What influences whether you get those variables right is the data, and the driver feedback. With our drivers, we don't get valuable feedback, so we have to rely on data alone which almost isn't good enough. Sometimes what a driver wants and what data suggests is opposite, but it's generally favorable to go with the driver feedback.

With regards to your 1.5 seconds quicker, that's a mental statement. If we were 1.5 seconds quicker on the soft tyres, we would have the fastest f1 car in history. it is not performance time to find in the car itself, but to have the car work with the tyres.

Many teams have been hampered by this. Red Bull, Mercedes, Williams and Force India all reportedly had big issues working the softer tyres over a lap. THis is due to the soft surface and low temps, but Williams problems are exaggerated by inexperienced drivers. This is why kubica was able to shine.

To summarise,

Aerodynamic platform, Good.
Setups - where the most time can be found.
Problem - Drivers.


LOL ok Mike.

What was our fastest time whatever and tyre was it a 1:19 :1 that was all the car could really manage so going on that time tyre fuel load whatever i would like to think that when we hope they resolve the issues we could then go 1.5 seconds quicker

working on that chart above we have gaind 0.2 seconds on last year i would like and think
0.2 plus my 1.5 when the car is working total 1.7 quicker than last years car which was average

I would think maybe a tenth of a second quicker in all the corners would do the job.



RMRC

i Agree maybe front suspension rethink.
seems like once they get into the corner it settles down a bit
but could be anything at this stage

They must of tried loads of setups changes over these last 4 days and nothing has worked yet.









I



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/03/2018 12:43 by gpl.

 
Re: Technically what is wrong with FW41???
gpl (IP Logged)
11 March, 2018 12:53
I agree that at least one of our drivers could be weak we don,t no for sure yet.

I think i am right in saying one of the worst problems you can have on a race car
or any car is under steer and over steer at the same time when pushing on and you have no idea which one you will be confronted with at the next corner.

One or the other is workable but both together can be a nightmare to resolve.

You can see why these young guys have no pace plus they have been told to not bin it
No confidence in the new car yet.

L have to keep some faith in Sergey because i have very little left for Lance as yet.



[b]Anyway this is not a drivers thread lets keep it about the car for the time being[/b]



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 11/03/2018 13:52 by gpl.

 
Re: Technically what is wrong with FW41???
phatjack (IP Logged)
11 March, 2018 13:51
Quote:
gpl
I agree that at least one of our drivers could be weak we don,t no for sure yet.
I think i am right in saying one of the worst problems you can have on a race car
or any car is under steer and over steer at the same time when pushing on and you have no idea which one you will be confronted with next corner.

One or the other is fine but both can be a nightmare to resolve.

You can see why these young guys have no pace plus they have been told to not bin it
No confidence in the new car yet.

L have to keep some faith in Sergey because i have very little left for Lance as yet.



[b]Anyway this is not a drivers thread lets keep it about the car for the time being[/b]

LMAO, and Whitey had a negative attitude?

 
Re: Technically what is wrong with FW41???
hemorrhage (IP Logged)
11 March, 2018 13:52
Wrong front wing + copy paste@useless@too heavy barge board = less downforce at the rear.

Wtf windtunnel do? Are they only use table fan and white powder to see the airflow??

 
Re: Technically what is wrong with FW41???
gpl (IP Logged)
11 March, 2018 13:55
hemmorage

You have started a decent thread so do not spoil it mate.

 
Re: Technically what is wrong with FW41???
hemorrhage (IP Logged)
11 March, 2018 14:11
I mean it bro, sound stupid but it is. Paddy said need long time to understand our car.......very2 bad sign bro.

 
Re: Technically what is wrong with FW41???
Mikef1 (IP Logged)
11 March, 2018 14:22
LOL ok Mike.

What was our fastest time whatever and tyre was it a 1:19 :1 that was all the car could really manage so going on that time tyre fuel load whatever i would like to think that when we hope they resolve the issues we could then go 1.5 seconds quicker

working on that chart above we have gaind 0.2 seconds on last year i would like and think
0.2 plus my 1.5 when the car is working total 1.7 quicker than last years car which was average



I really don't understand your perspective I don't think you realise I am agreeing with you as you start your sentence with "lol okay mike" as if I just said something absurdly stupid.

I agree the car can go 1.5 seconds faster, but I think you assume this takes a huge amount of work. It takes refinement to the existing car that's why it got faster from days 1 to 8. The car wouldn't have done a 1.19.1 on softs if it wasn't capable of going fast... as such, it only takes setup to get the car into the correct window. This car is so dramatically different to the other one it takes time to get on top of That it doesn't mean we need to redesign half the car.

I think it would be productive for you to take a chill pill. You act like I'm calling you wrong, all I did was expand on your point and offer feedback based on my personal experience. I was supporting your discussion not telling you you're wrong.

 
Re: Technically what is wrong with FW41???
gpl (IP Logged)
11 March, 2018 14:51
I don,t need a pill thanks for your concern lol.

I just think it is going to take more time and more in depth work than you think to get this car performing they way the designers had planned let alone pushing on with performance updates.

Again if it was setup as you say then i think last weeks work on the car would
sorted it.

Bottom line i think a few things mechanical and measurements may need redesigning reevluating and not just adjustments.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/03/2018 14:56 by gpl.

 
Re: Technically what is wrong with FW41???
Mikef1 (IP Logged)
11 March, 2018 15:29
Well thank God you know the solution. Maybe Williams should hire you.

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