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Re: Are Ferrari cheating?
phatjack (IP Logged)
20 April, 2018 18:36
Quote:
K1
Why spin up the turbo manually? What on earth are you talking about?

What controls the speed of the Turbo? MGU-H is that not correct. Now go back and read that original text passage that got you all worked up. The MGU-H is being bypassed and the ERS-H system is employed. It would be my guess that mode is manually controlled by driver.

 
Re: Are Ferrari cheating?
T-800 Model 101 (IP Logged)
21 April, 2018 02:42
Mercedes are now saying Ferrari have the most powerful engine in F1.

 
Re: Are Ferrari cheating?
Boxman (IP Logged)
21 April, 2018 06:42
Quote:
phatjack
Quote:
K1
Why spin up the turbo manually? What on earth are you talking about?

What controls the speed of the Turbo? MGU-H is that not correct. Now go back and read that original text passage that got you all worked up. The MGU-H is being bypassed and the ERS-H system is employed. It would be my guess that mode is manually controlled by driver.

Slow down there mate, per my knowledge ERS stands for Energy Recovery System and is a name of entire "electrical" part of modern hybrid F1 car. Now there is no such thing as ERS-H unless somebody was lazy and ment the heat energy recovery part of the ERS for which the actual name is ... MGU-H.

Last but not least - the MGU-H does not solely control the speed of a turbo, it can influence it to a degree but the main factor will always be exhaust gasses - MGU-H can just me used to add some load to it to recover some energy or in limited scenarios spin it up faster.

Please try and understand what are you reading about before you post your view on it because it really hurts the duscussion that most of the time we are fighting nonsense instead of enjoying insightful commentssmiling smiley

Unless of course I am wrong and you can proove it then call me a fool smiling smiley

 
Re: Are Ferrari cheating?
K1 (IP Logged)
21 April, 2018 11:07
@ Boxman. Correct. ERS is simply the overall term used for all the 'electrical' components. You may care to comment on the numerous expressed comments re the 'excessive costs' associated with the MGU-H. What is the estimated cost and why is deemed to be the singular most expensive component of the current PU ? No one has ever explained that despite my many requests in many other forums!!!

 
Re: Are Ferrari cheating?
phatjack (IP Logged)
21 April, 2018 11:37
Quote:
Boxman
Quote:
phatjack
Quote:
K1
Why spin up the turbo manually? What on earth are you talking about?

What controls the speed of the Turbo? MGU-H is that not correct. Now go back and read that original text passage that got you all worked up. The MGU-H is being bypassed and the ERS-H system is employed. It would be my guess that mode is manually controlled by driver.

Slow down there mate, per my knowledge ERS stands for Energy Recovery System and is a name of entire "electrical" part of modern hybrid F1 car. Now there is no such thing as ERS-H unless somebody was lazy and ment the heat energy recovery part of the ERS for which the actual name is ... MGU-H.

Last but not least - the MGU-H does not solely control the speed of a turbo, it can influence it to a degree but the main factor will always be exhaust gasses - MGU-H can just me used to add some load to it to recover some energy or in limited scenarios spin it up faster.

Please try and understand what are you reading about before you post your view on it because it really hurts the duscussion that most of the time we are fighting nonsense instead of enjoying insightful commentssmiling smiley

Unless of course I am wrong and you can proove it then call me a fool smiling smiley

We can nitpick at terminology mate but noone is a fool. Watch!




 
Re: Are Ferrari cheating?
Boxman (IP Logged)
21 April, 2018 12:12
Quote:
K1
@ Boxman. Correct. ERS is simply the overall term used for all the 'electrical' components. You may care to comment on the numerous expressed comments re the 'excessive costs' associated with the MGU-H. What is the estimated cost and why is deemed to be the singular most expensive component of the current PU ? No one has ever explained that despite my many requests in many other forums!!!

Well, as with everything regarding in depth specifics of designs utilized in F1 there is not much info out there. But from a logical standpoint I can easily imagine why. I know it may seem wierd because at first look MGU-H is pretty much the same general principle as MGU-K - an electric motor capable of both loading and propelling the shaft (either drivetrain pre main clutch in MGU-K case or turbine shaft in the case of MGU-H) I am pretty sure that the cost difference comes mainly from problems coused in the design of MGU-H by the insane dynamics it has to withstand. I have no real data regarding F1 here (didn't bother to dig for it - probably there are some estimates somewhere) but in regular street legal cars turbo spins up to 150k rpm and MGU-H althoug allowed to be clutched (no idea if any team does actually have a clutch to disengage it) has to be coupled directly to that shaft. So now you are trying to deign an electric motor capable of +30kW outputs with rotor as light as possible (you dont want to add inertia to turbine) and then said engine has to be perfectly balanced to reach the rpm needed. Then there is the matter of precisely controlling that motor at the rev dynamics of F1 turbine to mitigate the added inertia and actually get it to work in a way you want MGU-H working. I would say the insane cost of it comes from the simple fact that if it is allowed teams need to have it - because if done right it does give a big advantage, it just costs so damn much to design it from both mechanical and control standpoint.That said F1 teams even the most wealthy ones are rather smart about their money and I think that both on paper and in real life it is still the most cost effective thing to invest your money in up until the "most costly part in PU mark" so teams do it.

 
Re: Are Ferrari cheating?
Lalaland (IP Logged)
21 April, 2018 14:22
What if the FIA accepts that Ferrari goes over the fuel consumption 😲

 
Re: Are Ferrari cheating?
phatjack (IP Logged)
21 April, 2018 15:28
Quote:
T-800 Model 101
Mercedes are now saying Ferrari have the most powerful engine in F1.

With all the lifting and coasting the Ferrari is making through a race distance from what I am reading across boards and form F1 experts that maybe the case but Mercedes over a race distance has the superior "Energy Recovery System".

 
Re: Are Ferrari cheating?
Boxman (IP Logged)
21 April, 2018 16:18
Quote:
phatjack
Quote:
Boxman
Quote:
phatjack
Quote:
K1
Why spin up the turbo manually? What on earth are you talking about?

What controls the speed of the Turbo? MGU-H is that not correct. Now go back and read that original text passage that got you all worked up. The MGU-H is being bypassed and the ERS-H system is employed. It would be my guess that mode is manually controlled by driver.

Slow down there mate, per my knowledge ERS stands for Energy Recovery System and is a name of entire "electrical" part of modern hybrid F1 car. Now there is no such thing as ERS-H unless somebody was lazy and ment the heat energy recovery part of the ERS for which the actual name is ... MGU-H.

Last but not least - the MGU-H does not solely control the speed of a turbo, it can influence it to a degree but the main factor will always be exhaust gasses - MGU-H can just me used to add some load to it to recover some energy or in limited scenarios spin it up faster.

Please try and understand what are you reading about before you post your view on it because it really hurts the duscussion that most of the time we are fighting nonsense instead of enjoying insightful commentssmiling smiley

Unless of course I am wrong and you can proove it then call me a fool smiling smiley

We can nitpick at terminology mate but noone is a fool. Watch!

Big wow... he has a lever to control something... could be anything and prooves nothing. And yeah... the control over strictly MGU-H by a manual lever is impossible from both the engineering standpoint and legal as per current regulations.

 
Re: Are Ferrari cheating?
Mikef1 (IP Logged)
21 April, 2018 16:20
Quote:
phatjack
Quote:
T-800 Model 101
Mercedes are now saying Ferrari have the most powerful engine in F1.

With all the lifting and coasting the Ferrari is making through a race distance from what I am reading across boards and form F1 experts that maybe the case but Mercedes over a race distance has the superior "Energy Recovery System".

I think the consensus this year has been that Ferrari is equal on power but the Mercedes is still more "fuel efficient" which is a massive advantage. I just hope both prove to be equally reliable between the 5-7 race age.

 
Re: Are Ferrari cheating?
phatjack (IP Logged)
21 April, 2018 17:40
Quote:
Boxman
Quote:
phatjack
Quote:
Boxman
Quote:
phatjack
Quote:
K1
Why spin up the turbo manually? What on earth are you talking about?

What controls the speed of the Turbo? MGU-H is that not correct. Now go back and read that original text passage that got you all worked up. The MGU-H is being bypassed and the ERS-H system is employed. It would be my guess that mode is manually controlled by driver.

Slow down there mate, per my knowledge ERS stands for Energy Recovery System and is a name of entire "electrical" part of modern hybrid F1 car. Now there is no such thing as ERS-H unless somebody was lazy and ment the heat energy recovery part of the ERS for which the actual name is ... MGU-H.

Last but not least - the MGU-H does not solely control the speed of a turbo, it can influence it to a degree but the main factor will always be exhaust gasses - MGU-H can just me used to add some load to it to recover some energy or in limited scenarios spin it up faster.

Please try and understand what are you reading about before you post your view on it because it really hurts the duscussion that most of the time we are fighting nonsense instead of enjoying insightful commentssmiling smiley

Unless of course I am wrong and you can proove it then call me a fool smiling smiley

We can nitpick at terminology mate but noone is a fool. Watch!

Big wow... he has a lever to control something... could be anything and prooves nothing. And yeah... the control over strictly MGU-H by a manual lever is impossible from both the engineering standpoint and legal as per current regulations.

Boxman, no wow ... it just proved you wrong, legality aside. But I regress you are the expert.

 
Re: Are Ferrari cheating?
Boxman (IP Logged)
21 April, 2018 18:18
Quote:
phatjack
Quote:
Boxman
Quote:
phatjack
Quote:
Boxman
Quote:
phatjack
Quote:
K1
Why spin up the turbo manually? What on earth are you talking about?

What controls the speed of the Turbo? MGU-H is that not correct. Now go back and read that original text passage that got you all worked up. The MGU-H is being bypassed and the ERS-H system is employed. It would be my guess that mode is manually controlled by driver.

Slow down there mate, per my knowledge ERS stands for Energy Recovery System and is a name of entire "electrical" part of modern hybrid F1 car. Now there is no such thing as ERS-H unless somebody was lazy and ment the heat energy recovery part of the ERS for which the actual name is ... MGU-H.

Last but not least - the MGU-H does not solely control the speed of a turbo, it can influence it to a degree but the main factor will always be exhaust gasses - MGU-H can just me used to add some load to it to recover some energy or in limited scenarios spin it up faster.

Please try and understand what are you reading about before you post your view on it because it really hurts the duscussion that most of the time we are fighting nonsense instead of enjoying insightful commentssmiling smiley

Unless of course I am wrong and you can proove it then call me a fool smiling smiley

We can nitpick at terminology mate but noone is a fool. Watch!

Big wow... he has a lever to control something... could be anything and prooves nothing. And yeah... the control over strictly MGU-H by a manual lever is impossible from both the engineering standpoint and legal as per current regulations.

Boxman, no wow ... it just proved you wrong, legality aside. But I regress you are the expert.

Yeah... wow smiling smiley i am no expert, but how is a video ending with the guy saying - 'no idea what it is - maybe ask the viewers' proving anything is beyond me. Have fun proving stuf im out of here smiling smiley

 
Re: Are Ferrari cheating?
AlanJones (IP Logged)
21 April, 2018 19:27
Quote:
Mikef1
Quote:
phatjack
Quote:
T-800 Model 101
Mercedes are now saying Ferrari have the most powerful engine in F1.

With all the lifting and coasting the Ferrari is making through a race distance from what I am reading across boards and form F1 experts that maybe the case but Mercedes over a race distance has the superior "Energy Recovery System".

I think the consensus this year has been that Ferrari is equal on power but the Mercedes is still more "fuel efficient" which is a massive advantage. I just hope both prove to be equally reliable between the 5-7 race age.

Key to the championship this year will be the second half of the season combined with the penalties endured. Because I can not believe that nor Ferrari nor Mercedes will "take" a strategic penalty later on.




http://oi60.tinypic.com/24eyh6f.jpg

 
Re: Are Ferrari cheating?
Lalaland (IP Logged)
25 April, 2018 13:27
http://www.f1i.com/news/301488-ferrari-culprit-fias-exhaust-blowing-clampdown.html

Quote:
Is Ferrari the culprit for the FIA's exhaust blowing clampdown?

The FIA has ramped up its scrutiny of exhaust blowing in F1, and reports are suggesting that Ferrari's SF71-H may be at the basis of the clampdown.

Nikolas Tomazis, the head of single seater technical matters for the FIA, sent teams a note reiterating the governing body's stance on exhaust blowing, reminding competitors that it would not tolerate trick engine modes that help blowing of a car's rear wing.

Spain's Marca is reporting that Ferrari's SF71-H caught the FIA's attention in China for sounding “different” in Shanghai's corners.

"There are suspicions the SF71H is using special engine maps that blow exhaust to the rear wing of the car," wrote correspondent Marco Canseco.

Renault was also believed to be in the FIA's line of sight for its angled exhaust aimed at the rear wing of the team's R.S.18. But the French manufacturer insists the rear layout of its 2018 car conforms with the technical rules.

Ferrari's engine maps are now reportedly under scrutiny by Tombazis, who coincidentally worked as a designer for the Scuderia before moving to the FIA.

"We do not accept engine maps that are specifically designed to increase the flow of exhaust in corners," he wrote in a letter.

"To be permissible, such flows should correspond with maps that actually increase the performance of the power unit."

Marca also reports that the mysterious third paddle that has appeared on the steering wheel of championship leader Sebastian Vettel is also the subject of the FIA's scrutiny.

Its presence was noted in Bahrain and has fueled speculation that it serves the purpose of altering a specific setting on the Ferrari.

Queried on the matter, the Scuderia is mum on the element's precise function but the team denied however that it was being used to change engine map settings.

 
Re: Are Ferrari cheating?
Ozzy Osbone (IP Logged)
25 April, 2018 15:06
Ferrari are suck.

 
Re: Are Ferrari cheating?
phatjack (IP Logged)
25 April, 2018 22:49
Ozzy, like Williams who is trying to push the envelope, Ferrari is succeeding.

I am disappointed Boxman didn't hang around.

This video sums up Williams and Boxman!




 
Re: Are Ferrari cheating?
Ozzy Osbone (IP Logged)
26 April, 2018 01:58
No, that's called The Birdie Song which I believe was a hit by The Tweets sometime around 1980 or so. There was another version in the charts at the same time and it all got quite heated.

Here you go.

[www.youtube.com]

 
Re: Are Ferrari cheating?
Boxman (IP Logged)
26 April, 2018 08:32
Quote:
phatjack
Ozzy, like Williams who is trying to push the envelope, Ferrari is succeeding.
I am disappointed Boxman didn't hang around.

This video sums up Williams and Boxman!


FIA is investigating Ferrari exhaust blowing by creative engine mappings which is entirely different than doing so on the expense of MGU-H energy... Dont worry I do not expect you to understand the difference since you dont know your had from your @#$%&. In the words of Hammerage or whoever started this wonderful tradition: you are suck smiling smiley See from the vid you got friends tho so its not all badsmiling smiley

BTW for technologically literate ppl who endured in this thread this actually would not be cheating as per current regulations unless it does mean any torque delivery independent from driver input (they could be hiding that via ERS which would be hard to proove and again illegal as it could be interpreted as traction control system to some extent) I am quite curious what will come of that clampdown smiling smiley

 
Re: Are Ferrari cheating?
phatjack (IP Logged)
26 April, 2018 23:19
So from a puff of smoke seen emanating from the Ferrari you now have come full circle? Azerbaijan should be interesting. smiling smiley

 
Re: Are Ferrari cheating?
Ozzy Osbone (IP Logged)
27 April, 2018 21:14
Does anyone want a free copy of Boxman's latest book 'How to be a condescending @#$%& all the time'. ? I've read it but can't understand it as I'm a bit dim.

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