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The 2019 regulations
Mikef1 (IP Logged)
17 May, 2018 10:52
[www.patreon.com]

A good interpretation of the new regulations. The bit about increased bargeboards and floor complexity doesn't make good reading for a Williams fan right now.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 17/05/2018 14:32 by Mikef1.

 
Re: The 2019 regulstions
T-800 Model 101 (IP Logged)
17 May, 2018 11:43
Mike please fix spelling in your title it is killing me...Obsessive-compulsive disorder.

 
Re: The 2019 regulstions
Mikef1 (IP Logged)
17 May, 2018 12:00
Don't you know what regulstions are?

 
Re: The 2019 regulstions
Boxman (IP Logged)
17 May, 2018 13:20
It's all kind of weird because we are hearing how LM aims to drop DRS alltogether and then there is this... perhaps a quick fix to remedy some problems before a major workover of rules for 2021. Being sceptical about this I do appreciate the fact that LM gives a signal that they are aware of problem and willing to have a swing at it. I do hope that having sorted 2021 engine wise they will have a crack at limiting aero and making sure mechanical grip has more pronounced impact, between currently allowed amount of fuel used and the drag reduction lowering the weight a bit would mean some actual racing instead of tyre and fuel management contest. Who cares about 2-3 sec per lap if we avoid embarrassing processions like australia or spain '18.

 
Re: The 2019 regulstions
Mikef1 (IP Logged)
17 May, 2018 13:36
Couldn't agree more. I don't care how many times "new lap record" flashed up on Sunday. A bad race is a bad race.

 
Re: The 2019 regulstions
T-800 Model 101 (IP Logged)
17 May, 2018 14:19
Quote:
Mikef1
Don't you know what regulstions are?

Haha...serious Mike fix it, my OCD is strong and this wrong spelling in the title is killing me...Fix it ASAP (Sm19)

 
Re: The 2019 regulstions
Mikef1 (IP Logged)
17 May, 2018 14:26
Okay I apologise but I don't know how to edit the title of a post

 
Re: The 2019 regulations
T-800 Model 101 (IP Logged)
17 May, 2018 14:39
Thanks Mike.

 
Re: The 2019 regulations
AlanJones (IP Logged)
17 May, 2018 16:39
Now let's start discussing about this interesting topic. It is strange to see the fact that Liberty is so eager on making it a better show. One could forget the fact that this should be a sport. Not only entertainment.




http://oi60.tinypic.com/24eyh6f.jpg

 
Re: The 2019 regulations
Mehryar (IP Logged)
17 May, 2018 19:32
I can not see how these new regs can change the overtaking stats dramatically.In best scenario it can reduce the effect to what was in mid 2000s when we still had lack of overtaking.

The changes must be foundamental like scrapping wings effect and going for ground effect and you may still finish with a terrible race on a track like Barcelona.It must be changes everywhere, from track designs to car designs, money ditribution to tyre supplying strategy.

Doing it in one field and leaving others as they are now, will have minimal effect.



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Dylan's Together Through Life Hits The Stores.

 
Re: The 2019 regulations
Ozzy Osbone (IP Logged)
17 May, 2018 19:43
What if you were in the US and someone apologised to you instead of apologized? You would just have to jump out of the window (which you had just cleaned 14 times in the last hour).

 
Re: The 2019 regulations
Mikef1 (IP Logged)
18 May, 2018 06:36
Quote:
Mehryar
I can not see how these new regs can change the overtaking stats dramatically.In best scenario it can reduce the effect to what was in mid 2000s when we still had lack of overtaking.
The changes must be foundamental like scrapping wings effect and going for ground effect and you may still finish with a terrible race on a track like Barcelona.It must be changes everywhere, from track designs to car designs, money ditribution to tyre supplying strategy.

Doing it in one field and leaving others as they are now, will have minimal effect.

More drag for the leading car and more slipstream potential with the larger DRS will boost the overtaking stats. I'm not sure that's what fans want to see nor do I believe it will have a tangible impact on tracks like Spain and Barcelona where the car starts the straight too fast.

Reducing the amount of generated vortices on the outside edges of the car theoretically would help a following car through the corners with less turbulent air but it's not going to be bumper to bumper and they've made the front and rear wings bigger which is almost a backwards step amongst other more positive ones.

I honestly think at difficult tracks there will be zero overtakes still and at better tracks you will just see more Drs passes. Kinda pointless but naturally we will see when we actually go racing.

 
Re: The 2019 regulations
AlanJones (IP Logged)
18 May, 2018 06:48
I never knew Barcelona and Spain were separate tracks.




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Re: The 2019 regulations
Anderis (IP Logged)
18 May, 2018 09:47
Spain is not really a track. It's a country.

 
Re: The 2019 regulations
A.Fant (IP Logged)
18 May, 2018 09:48
Quote:
Mikef1
Quote:
Mehryar
I can not see how these new regs can change the overtaking stats dramatically.In best scenario it can reduce the effect to what was in mid 2000s when we still had lack of overtaking.
The changes must be foundamental like scrapping wings effect and going for ground effect and you may still finish with a terrible race on a track like Barcelona.It must be changes everywhere, from track designs to car designs, money ditribution to tyre supplying strategy.

Doing it in one field and leaving others as they are now, will have minimal effect.

More drag for the leading car and more slipstream potential with the larger DRS will boost the overtaking stats. I'm not sure that's what fans want to see nor do I believe it will have a tangible impact on tracks like Spain and Barcelona where the car starts the straight too fast.

Reducing the amount of generated vortices on the outside edges of the car theoretically would help a following car through the corners with less turbulent air but it's not going to be bumper to bumper and they've made the front and rear wings bigger which is almost a backwards step amongst other more positive ones.

I honestly think at difficult tracks there will be zero overtakes still and at better tracks you will just see more Drs passes. Kinda pointless but naturally we will see when we actually go racing.

I disagree regarding Circuit de Catalunya, I think the cars are coming on to the straight too slow (and spread out).

For example: Long slow-speed corners (like T7 at Yas Marina) are the type of corner that spreads the cars out the most due to the concertina effect.

I've come to the conclusion that long straights are not what is important, a long straight from a slow corner like Yas Marina (1,200 m) is a lot worse for overtaking than a mid-length straight like Spa (770 m) coming from a fast corner as the slip-streaming effect increases exponentially with speed.

Circuit de Catalunya has one of the longer straights (1,050 m) but the track is terrible for overtaking since (1) T1 is too fast and (2) the chicane at the end of the lap lowers the speed of the straight AND separates the cars. The old layout had fast corners that while having a separating effect due to the difficulty of following other cars at least provides a high entry-speed for the straight. The reason we see more passing there these days is due to the removal of refueling and the introduction of DRS, the layout change had the opposite of intended effect as can be seen by the terrible 2008 and 2009 races.

Monza's main straight (1,120 m) is not much longer than Catalunya's and the Parabolica is difficult to follow another car through, but since T1 is a hard braking zone and the average speed of the straight is so high it is one of the best overtaking tracks on the calendar.

The Hangar straight at Silverstone is a relatively good overtaking spot because of Maggots -Becketts-Chapel, not despite of it, and the only issue is that the braking zone for Stowe is too short.

The main straight at the Red Bull Ring is apparently only 650 m, but T1 is quite fast and T2 is one of the better overtaking spots on the calendar.

When it comes to track design I'd say a short mid/high-speed corner onto long straight into slow corner is the best combo - not the idiotic slow-straight-slow design that Tilke was tasked with designing the past 20 years.

I think one reason for the misconception is the introduction of the rev limit which basically neutered high-speed slip-streaming since it capped the cars top speed. It didn't matter that the air resistance was reduced since you couldn't overrev the engine and therefore go faster. So at a track like Spa you hit the limiter halfway down the straight and couldn't catch up to the car in front. If you set up the car to allow for slip-streaming you lost too much acceleration and lost ultimate pace which is more important.

Though this all comes from my comfy armchair, I don't have any real-world experience like Mike and I may be way off the mark.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 18/05/2018 09:49 by A.Fant.

 
Re: The 2019 regulations
A.Fant (IP Logged)
18 May, 2018 09:50
This is my source for the length of straights: [f1statblog.co.uk]

 
Re: The 2019 regulations
Mikef1 (IP Logged)
18 May, 2018 10:12
The last corner in Barcelona is too gradual and at an uncomfortable speed. To lead directly onto a straight it's not flat and it generates too much understeer as a long sweeping corner.

Eau rouge is not a very good comparison for 2 reasons. The cars start to close from t1 not eau rouge meaning they already have a speed advantage when they hit the corner which means they are generating more downforce. With eau rouge being so steep the aero is also working more efficiently so by the time you get to the top, any scrubbed speed has only marginally compromised you. You will almost always see the chasing car is faster through the whole of eau rouge and thus easily able to pass before the end of the straight. In other instances the car is still much closer than say exiting a long sweeping corner because eau rouge doesn't really require much turning.

T1 in Austria is a very different characteristic it's also not a sweeping corner like the final corner in Australia and Barcelona. To generate real overtaking you need a corner that is not sweeping (causing chronic understeer and scrubbing speed/compromising racing line) of the chasing car. You then need a heavy breaking zone which is why Barcelona and Australia don't work.

Hangar straight is somewhat of an anomalie but it has a huge Drs zone and I'd be interested to know who's overtaking who there. I feel like you'd need the car superior car to get it done. I will pay attention at Silverstone this year.

Tilke has indeed proven that point and shoot straights also don't work.

Sweeping corners also don't work like Barcelona and Australia but this is the part they are tying (and I suspect failing) to fix

 
Re: The 2019 regulations
A.Fant (IP Logged)
18 May, 2018 10:30
Quote:
Mikef1
The last corner in Barcelona is too gradual and at an uncomfortable speed. To lead directly onto a straight it's not flat and it generates too much understeer as a long sweeping corner.
Eau rouge is not a very good comparison for 2 reasons. The cars start to close from t1 not eau rouge meaning they already have a speed advantage when they hit the corner which means they are generating more downforce. With eau rouge being so steep the aero is also working more efficiently so by the time you get to the top, any scrubbed speed has only marginally compromised you. You will almost always see the chasing car is faster through the whole of eau rouge and thus easily able to pass before the end of the straight. In other instances the car is still much closer than say exiting a long sweeping corner because eau rouge doesn't really require much turning.

T1 in Austria is a very different characteristic it's also not a sweeping corner like the final corner in Australia and Barcelona. To generate real overtaking you need a corner that is not sweeping (causing chronic understeer and scrubbing speed/compromising racing line) of the chasing car. You then need a heavy breaking zone which is why Barcelona and Australia don't work.

Hangar straight is somewhat of an anomalie but it has a huge Drs zone and I'd be interested to know who's overtaking who there. I feel like you'd need the car superior car to get it done. I will pay attention at Silverstone this year.

Tilke has indeed proven that point and shoot straights also don't work.

Sweeping corners also don't work like Barcelona and Australia but this is the part they are tying (and I suspect failing) to fix

I agree about the sweepers, the corner preceding the straight needs primarily to be short.

Istanbul Park from T8 to T12 probably has the best layout for overtaking if we ignore Baku's ridiculous 1,600 m straight.

[en.wikipedia.org]

 
Re: The 2019 regulations
Mehryar (IP Logged)
18 May, 2018 11:41
Quote:
A.Fant
Monza's main straight (1,120 m) is not much longer than Catalunya's and the Parabolica is difficult to follow another car through, but since T1 is a hard braking zone and the average speed of the straight is so high it is one of the best overtaking tracks on the calendar.

In fact I believe wide, high speed final corners would do the trick better than comming out of a chicane or slow corner.Because those kindda corners can offer multiple racing lines usually so the car behind, though in a medium or high speed corner, takes less dirty air by taking a different line.something like Parabolica.

Imo that's the reason that old circuits used to offer a closer racing.Stop-go corners can be a terrible idea for the car behind to get a good traction out of it when behind another car.



http://img150.imageshack.us/img150/1095/mehryarsigyo7.gif

Dylan's Together Through Life Hits The Stores.

 
Re: The 2019 regulations
Mikef1 (IP Logged)
18 May, 2018 11:46
Quote:
Mehryar
Quote:
A.Fant
Monza's main straight (1,120 m) is not much longer than Catalunya's and the Parabolica is difficult to follow another car through, but since T1 is a hard braking zone and the average speed of the straight is so high it is one of the best overtaking tracks on the calendar.

In fact I believe wide, high speed final corners would do the trick better than comming out of a chicane or slow corner.Because those kindda corners can offer multiple racing lines usually so the car behind, though in a medium or high speed corner, takes less dirty air by taking a different line.something like Parabolica.

Imo that's the reason that old circuits used to offer a closer racing.Stop-go corners can be a terrible idea for the car behind to get a good traction out of it when behind another car.

This is absolutely correct. Having enough space in a corner to use multiple racing lines. Parabolica is a brilliant example.

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