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Re: Is it just me
Mikef1 04 September, 2018 07:27
Quote:
A.Fant
Vettel is Rosberg/Button-tier, not Alonso/Hamilton-tier. That has been clear for quite a while.

Agreed. For what it's worth I think he's sub that level too. I think Bottas would destroy Vettel Ricciardo style

I know it's easy to look at Bottas last few races and say he's @#$%& but most of the previous races I can remember since Austria his race has been compromised by Mercedes. He was actually fairly quick in Monza and if he'd have cleared Max when Max was playing bumper cars he likely had the pace for P2 as he was the fastest car on track prior to catching Verstappen.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/09/2018 07:30 by Mikef1.

Re: Is it just me
A.Fant 04 September, 2018 08:02
Quote:
Mikef1
Quote:
A.Fant
Vettel is Rosberg/Button-tier, not Alonso/Hamilton-tier. That has been clear for quite a while.

Agreed. For what it's worth I think he's sub that level too. I think Bottas would destroy Vettel Ricciardo style

I know it's easy to look at Bottas last few races and say he's @#$%& but most of the previous races I can remember since Austria his race has been compromised by Mercedes. He was actually fairly quick in Monza and if he'd have cleared Max when Max was playing bumper cars he likely had the pace for P2 as he was the fastest car on track prior to catching Verstappen.

I wouldn't put Bottas on Rosberg/Button's level since he hasn't been able to give Hamilton a run for his money like the other two. But you have a point in that Vettel might not even be on Rosberg/Button's level either - just compare his performances vs Kimi against Alonso's and then Button's against Alonso/Hamilton and Rosberg's vs Hamilton.

Re: Is it just me
T-800 Model 101 04 September, 2018 08:45
Phatjack would be fighting a losing battle if he is game enough to post in this thread tongue sticking out smiley

Re: Is it just me
Myvatn 04 September, 2018 09:13
Quote:
A.Fant
Vettel is Rosberg/Button-tier, not Alonso/Hamilton-tier. That has been clear for quite a while.

That's rewriting history I think. He's messing up at Ferrari, but in the Red Bull years he was clearly the best driver bar maybe Alonso. At Ferrari he has much higher expectations on him, the pressure in Monza was huge. He had to win, any other result would have been seen as unacceptable. HAM is now in a much more comfortable position - which he achieved by himself, of course.

Re: Is it just me
A.Fant 04 September, 2018 09:21
Quote:
Myvatn
Quote:
A.Fant
Vettel is Rosberg/Button-tier, not Alonso/Hamilton-tier. That has been clear for quite a while.

That's rewriting history I think. He's messing up at Ferrari, but in the Red Bull years he was clearly the best driver bar maybe Alonso. At Ferrari he has much higher expectations on him, the pressure in Monza was huge. He had to win, any other result would have been seen as unacceptable. HAM is now in a much more comfortable position - which he achieved by himself, of course.

When he had a broken-spirited Mark Webber as a teammate? How much was Vettel and how much was the car? He never had a good yardstick in his Red Bull years. He got beat by Ricciardo pretty badly didn't he?

Vettel's performances against Kimi would have been very impressive if Alonso hadn't been about twice as dominant against him.

Re: Is it just me
Myvatn 04 September, 2018 09:32
Quote:
A.Fant
Quote:
Myvatn
Quote:
A.Fant
Vettel is Rosberg/Button-tier, not Alonso/Hamilton-tier. That has been clear for quite a while.

That's rewriting history I think. He's messing up at Ferrari, but in the Red Bull years he was clearly the best driver bar maybe Alonso. At Ferrari he has much higher expectations on him, the pressure in Monza was huge. He had to win, any other result would have been seen as unacceptable. HAM is now in a much more comfortable position - which he achieved by himself, of course.

When he had a broken-spirited Mark Webber as a teammate? How much was Vettel and how much was the car? He never had a good yardstick in his Red Bull years. He got beat by Ricciardo pretty badly didn't he?

Vettel's performances against Kimi would have been very impressive if Alonso hadn't been about twice as dominant against him.
Yes, in 2014 he was beaten by Ricciardo by quite a margin. But one cannot take one season as summary for an 11-year and 4 WDC career, otherwise one could say taking just 2011 that Hamilton is also on the same level as Button.

In 2010 Vettel won the title in his third complete season. In 2011 and 2013 he had a clearly dominant car, but in 2012 that wasn't the case and yet he won making almost no mistake of his own. If he's not able to handle the pressure, then how could he win in 2012 after Senna crashed on him on the first lap of the last race?
Just in the last four races Vettel has had more mess-ups than in the whole 2010 to 2013 period, and that's counting also the clashes with the not-so-dispirited Webber in 2010. I think that's down to the far higher pressure being a Ferrari driver and following on Michael Schumacher's footsteps is putting on him.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/09/2018 09:33 by Myvatn.

Re: Is it just me
A.Fant 04 September, 2018 09:54
Quote:
Myvatn
Quote:
A.Fant
Quote:
Myvatn
Quote:
A.Fant
Vettel is Rosberg/Button-tier, not Alonso/Hamilton-tier. That has been clear for quite a while.

That's rewriting history I think. He's messing up at Ferrari, but in the Red Bull years he was clearly the best driver bar maybe Alonso. At Ferrari he has much higher expectations on him, the pressure in Monza was huge. He had to win, any other result would have been seen as unacceptable. HAM is now in a much more comfortable position - which he achieved by himself, of course.

When he had a broken-spirited Mark Webber as a teammate? How much was Vettel and how much was the car? He never had a good yardstick in his Red Bull years. He got beat by Ricciardo pretty badly didn't he?

Vettel's performances against Kimi would have been very impressive if Alonso hadn't been about twice as dominant against him.
Yes, in 2014 he was beaten by Ricciardo by quite a margin. But one cannot take one season as summary for an 11-year and 4 WDC career, otherwise one could say taking just 2011 that Hamilton is also on the same level as Button.

In 2010 Vettel won the title in his third complete season. In 2011 and 2013 he had a clearly dominant car, but in 2012 that wasn't the case and yet he won making almost no mistake of his own. If he's not able to handle the pressure, then how could he win in 2012 after Senna crashed on him on the first lap of the last race?
Just in the last four races Vettel has had more mess-ups than in the whole 2010 to 2013 period, and that's counting also the clashes with the not-so-dispirited Webber in 2010. I think that's down to the far higher pressure being a Ferrari driver and following on Michael Schumacher's footsteps is putting on him.

I don't buy for one second that the 2010 and 2012 cars weren't dominant. There is little doubt in my mind that Button or Rosberg could (and probably would) have won the 2010-2013 titles had they been in Vettel's place.

Sometimes drivers just end up in terrific situations and it can take ages before they're figured out (and sometimes never). Häkkinen, Coulthard, Fisichella, Räikkönen, Montoya, Ralf Schumacher are such examples.

Then you have some drivers that are chronically underrated; the Heidfelds and Hülkenbergs. Button and Rosberg were in this category for a long time. I think Hülkenberg will surprise many against Ricciardo next year as I think he has come alive with the new 2017-era regs that mitigated his greatest weakness (tyre management).

Re: Is it just me
Mikef1 04 September, 2018 10:31
Quote:
A.Fant
Quote:
Mikef1
Quote:
A.Fant
Vettel is Rosberg/Button-tier, not Alonso/Hamilton-tier. That has been clear for quite a while.

Agreed. For what it's worth I think he's sub that level too. I think Bottas would destroy Vettel Ricciardo style

I know it's easy to look at Bottas last few races and say he's @#$%& but most of the previous races I can remember since Austria his race has been compromised by Mercedes. He was actually fairly quick in Monza and if he'd have cleared Max when Max was playing bumper cars he likely had the pace for P2 as he was the fastest car on track prior to catching Verstappen.

I wouldn't put Bottas on Rosberg/Button's level since he hasn't been able to give Hamilton a run for his money like the other two. But you have a point in that Vettel might not even be on Rosberg/Button's level either - just compare his performances vs Kimi against Alonso's and then Button's against Alonso/Hamilton and Rosberg's vs Hamilton.

At the start of the season we saw a fast Bottas. It's his bad luck early on and now fighting Ferrari for Hamilton's sake that has broken his spirit. I think he had the potential for a far better season than he's had. As I say, I know guys at Mercedes who believe there is usually less than a tenth between the two. Being stuck behind Verstappen didn't really help him prove his case, he may well have been able to fight alongside Kimi and Hamilton this weekend.

Re: Is it just me
Myvatn 04 September, 2018 11:05
Quote:
A.Fant
Quote:
Myvatn
Quote:
A.Fant
Quote:
Myvatn
Quote:
A.Fant
Vettel is Rosberg/Button-tier, not Alonso/Hamilton-tier. That has been clear for quite a while.

That's rewriting history I think. He's messing up at Ferrari, but in the Red Bull years he was clearly the best driver bar maybe Alonso. At Ferrari he has much higher expectations on him, the pressure in Monza was huge. He had to win, any other result would have been seen as unacceptable. HAM is now in a much more comfortable position - which he achieved by himself, of course.

When he had a broken-spirited Mark Webber as a teammate? How much was Vettel and how much was the car? He never had a good yardstick in his Red Bull years. He got beat by Ricciardo pretty badly didn't he?

Vettel's performances against Kimi would have been very impressive if Alonso hadn't been about twice as dominant against him.
Yes, in 2014 he was beaten by Ricciardo by quite a margin. But one cannot take one season as summary for an 11-year and 4 WDC career, otherwise one could say taking just 2011 that Hamilton is also on the same level as Button.

In 2010 Vettel won the title in his third complete season. In 2011 and 2013 he had a clearly dominant car, but in 2012 that wasn't the case and yet he won making almost no mistake of his own. If he's not able to handle the pressure, then how could he win in 2012 after Senna crashed on him on the first lap of the last race?
Just in the last four races Vettel has had more mess-ups than in the whole 2010 to 2013 period, and that's counting also the clashes with the not-so-dispirited Webber in 2010. I think that's down to the far higher pressure being a Ferrari driver and following on Michael Schumacher's footsteps is putting on him.

I don't buy for one second that the 2010 and 2012 cars weren't dominant. There is little doubt in my mind that Button or Rosberg could (and probably would) have won the 2010-2013 titles had they been in Vettel's place.

Sometimes drivers just end up in terrific situations and it can take ages before they're figured out (and sometimes never). Häkkinen, Coulthard, Fisichella, Räikkönen, Montoya, Ralf Schumacher are such examples.

Then you have some drivers that are chronically underrated; the Heidfelds and Hülkenbergs. Button and Rosberg were in this category for a long time. I think Hülkenberg will surprise many against Ricciardo next year as I think he has come alive with the new 2017-era regs that mitigated his greatest weakness (tyre management).
That's your opinion, but I don't think it is supported by facts. By mid-season 2012 Ferrari was the best car, and in the last races the McLaren was unreliable but clearly the fastest car in most occasions (HAM and BUT got 6 poles out of the last 10 GPs). The pecking order varied wildly between different tracks, 8 drivers from 6 different teams took wins.. If indeed the Red Bull was the dominant car it was well concealed. In 2010 I agree Red Bull was probably the best car overall, but still Vettel was in his third season against a far more experienced rival like Alonso.

How many races did Vettel throw away in 2012? How many in 2017-18? I think this alone tells you he's just not racing at his best in Ferrari. It is obviously a limit, but ROS never looked able to pull off stuff like Vettel's win in Monza 2008, let alone winning four championships in a row. He improved massively from his beginnings to his WDC win in 2016, but the fact that he retired immediately afterwards is an explicit admission that he felt not to be at the same level as Hamilton.

As per Hulkenberg... Mister 0 podiums in 151 races. Matched and then beaten by Perez in Force India. He's a good driver, but he's definitely not underrated and is where he deserves - a good midfield team.

PS: Hakkinen in the same sentence as Coulthard and Ralf... come on.

Re: Is it just me
Gunk 04 September, 2018 13:19
You can say this about Hulk. Though I rather feel he was losing focus at FI . . . a bit worn down by being a permanent midfielder.

I think he's raised his game at Renault and I don't think Prost or Abiteboul suffer fools gladly. Hulk vs Ric will be very interesting.

Back on topic, Seb is getting the worst press ever for his Monza mishap. Some dark whispers among the horses.

Re: Is it just me
Mehryar 04 September, 2018 13:29
You can't take away anything from Seb in his RBR years, not even being beaten by Daniel.It's impossible to compare 2 drivers in only 1 season with so many things to happen, a longer period is needed.
But last 2 seasons have been another story...Crash in Monza and Hockenheim, one in France I think too.



http://img150.imageshack.us/img150/1095/mehryarsigyo7.gif

Re: Is it just me
Anderis 04 September, 2018 14:33
Quote:
A.Fant
Vettel's performances against Kimi would have been very impressive if Alonso hadn't been about twice as dominant against him.
In 2015, Vettel was about as dominant against Kimi, as Alonso in 2014. Raikkonen seems to have stepped up a bit since then.

Re: Is it just me
andy si 04 September, 2018 23:01
Quote:
Mehryar
You can't take away anything from Seb in his RBR years, not even being beaten by Daniel.It's impossible to compare 2 drivers in only 1 season with so many things to happen, a longer period is needed.
But last 2 seasons have been another story...Crash in Monza and Hockenheim, one in France I think too.

He cost Bottas a good race result IIRC... and got away with it as well with only minor penalty if I'm not mistaken.

Re: Is it just me
Ozzy Osbone 04 September, 2018 23:55
There is a reason that drivers are second tier and that is just off weekends. Jenson, much as I am a fan of his, had too many. But yes, in that RBR he would have done at least as well as VET. Late 2009, the RBR was far superior to the Brawn but VET @#$%& it away again.

I think none of them are on the level of HAM / ALO. They stand above. They go forward all the time. I class them as the SEN / PRO / MAN of this time. Even PIQ had too many off weekends but got lucky with cars, as did VET.

I think if I was Ferrari, I would have looked seriously about getting ALO back, whatever it cost and whatever the fallout.

I can see HAM going there for a final 2 year deal at some point. Why not? Most poles, most race wins etc.

Unless I am wrong, he is around 22 behind MSC in race wins. Not a problem at all for him given another 3-4 years in a top car and he will be in a top car.

Re: Is it just me
Mikef1 05 September, 2018 20:19
I don't think Hamilton would. He's never really openly flirted with Ferrari as far as I can remember. I believe he will likely finish his career after his current contract and go into his music

Re: Is it just me
phatjack 05 September, 2018 23:16
Some never thought Lewis would openly flirt with Mercedes. Perhaps he'll post phone his music career just in case?



"When you talk, you are repeating what you already know. But if you listen, you may learn something new." - Dalai Lama



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/09/2018 23:17 by phatjack.

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