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Re: News and Stuff!
shriekback 23 March, 2019 02:29
Quote:
Shriek
Wow. You identify yourself as a Williams Supporter? If so, why?

Quote:
j-s
I'm a Williams fan, shriekback. A critical, cynical, nitpicky fan. Pleasure meeting you and welcome to the board. As to why I'm a fan, well... why do you care?

It was a question I was intending you to ask yourself, since you seem to have only bad opinions about the team. You are entitled to maintain such opinions if you wish. They are not terribly supportive, however--hence my question. Usually people try to think well of whatever they claim to support, at least so far as they can, whereas your views toward Williams are rather strikingly uncharitable.


Quote:
Shriek
You seem to only dislike the team, they being in your eyes entitled, inessential, undeserving laggards

Quote:
j-s
I stand by the inessential argument. There's no way Williams is essential to F1. No way. You're confusing value with necessity. Williams is valuable to F1, but they're not indispensable.

Essential and necessary do not mean the same thing. My contention is that Williams, given their long history and success in the sport help to define it. That definition, because it creates identification, a sense of tradition, etc. is worth quite a lot, not only to Williams but to all the teams. I said nothing of necessity. The sport would surely survive the loss of Williams, but it would be be different and much poorer without it.

Quote:
Shriek
That they have been around for over 40 years also means that they help define the sport for many fans.

Quote:
j-s
Absolutely. I love Williams for this reason most of all. Great stuff. But that doesn't justify the team's existence. This is more or less where I was going with the entitlement argument. And it wasn't a dig at you or the team, it was just a general observation about how Williams fans are obsessed with past glory and can, on occasion, use it to justify the team's place at the table... Nothing

Wow, something actually positive from you! Perhaps that is why I agree to an extent with this. I too think Williams fans, though they should be proud of the team's history of success, should be more forward looking and stop bemoaning the loss of Adrian Newey a couple of decades ago. Why you think anyone is appealing to that history to "justify the team's place at the table," however, is a mystery to me. When and where is their place in F1 being challenged such that it needs to be justified? They turned up last weekend having paid all entrance fees, then qualified two cars, raced (albeit not very well), etc. They need to justify being there? To you? I don't think so.

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Shriek
But then you are just saying that no one who needs help can deserve it. A weird view, I think. Are you perhaps a fan of Ayn Rand?

Quote:
j-s
That is a serious accusation. I take offense (not really). I'm not at all a fan of Rand but I'm aware how my argument is properly Randian. Oh well. That's too big a topic to dive into properly, so I won't.
And for the record, I never said that "no one who needs help can deserve it". I simply said that an inept Williams team doesn't deserve any charity. They have to clean up after themselves.

No, and I didn't exactly quote you saying that either. I do think it's a fair assessment of your argument inasmuch as you provide no other grounds for your judgment that the team deserves no help beyond your view that it is inept, hence you seem to be claiming that they do not deserve help because they need help. That is essentially Rand's view, ignoring as she does how the powerful always rig the game in their favor, making what they may wish to still identify as a genuine competition hardly a fair fight at all. Since it is a fair fight, in her view, people (or in the case F1 teams) only lose because they are losers.


Quote:
Shriek
you should be a Mercedes fan and root for power for its own sake.

Quote:
j-s
Thanks for the tip. I'll pass.

Are you certain? They may employ many times the number of people whom they can afford to pay much more and just generally spend many more times the money a team like Williams can afford in order to achieve their superior results--and not because they are a superior racing team but because they are a marketing wing for a massive corporation. As a massive corporation, they may also use their power in the sport to make sure the rules continue to enable them to keep dominating through sheer abundance of resources, but a good Randian can overlook all of that and pretend that teams like Williams are just inept and undeserving, surely.

Re: News and Stuff!
phatjack 23 March, 2019 16:21
j-s, you can't reason with a fanboy ...

You'll tell-em and show-em it is black and white and they'll come back at you with no it's grey. (Sm50)

Re: News and Stuff!
j-s 23 March, 2019 19:55
Agree Phat. But... I can't... Help... myself...

Quote:
Shriek
Essential and necessary do not mean the same thing.

They do to me. And probably to Merriam Webster too.

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Shriek
Wow, something actually positive from you! Perhaps that is why I agree to an extent with this.

Frightening way to establish what you agree with.

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Shriek
I do think it's a fair assessment of your argument inasmuch as you provide no other grounds for your judgment that the team deserves no help beyond your view that it is inept, hence you seem to be claiming that they do not deserve help because they need help

I seem to be claiming a lot of things, apparently. Do I believe Williams deserve charity right now? Nope. Can you legitimately translate that into an loose metaphor of objectivist theory? Perhaps. Does it really matter? Not one bit.

Let's move on. Let's keep Rand where she belongs: out of this forum.

Quote:
Shriek
(BLA BLA BLA ABOUT FOLLOWING MERCEDES) ... but a good Randian can overlook all of that and pretend that teams like Williams are just inept and undeserving, surely

There you go again. Why do you care how and why I follow this team? Ridiculous. You need and deserve some help to chill out!

Let me spoil F1 for you: gRAND prix. You're welcome.

Re: News and Stuff!
j-s 23 March, 2019 20:01
I love this team and think they'll do a great job of turning things around. They need time and resources, a good plan and good people to do so, but I'm sure they can do it. Let's keep the faith guys!

... nope. Doesn't do it for me. Sorry shriek.

Re: News and Stuff!
boro1986willliamsf1 23 March, 2019 20:23
Why all the squabbling among Williams fans good God the team is struggling now the fans a turning on themselves bloody hell get a grip its only a sport not real life



100% Williams
WILL SUPPORT WILLIAMS AS LONG AS THEY HAVE A TEAM

Re: News and Stuff!
shriekback 23 March, 2019 22:38
Quote:
j-s
Agree Phat. But... I can't... Help... myself...

Phat should mind his own dumb business.

Quote:
Shriek
Essential and necessary do not mean the same thing.

Quote:
j-s
They do to me. And probably to Merriam Webster too.

Well, colloquially, yes, they are often used interchangeably, and I would guess that most dictionaries--which arrive at definitions of words by their colloquial usage as much as by their more precise meaning (as determined by etymology and such)--would indicate that.

I think the way it is used in any reasonable claim that Williams is "essential" to Formula 1, however, is to indicate that Williams is part of F1's essence (notice how it involves the same word?). What I mean by that is, Williams helps to define what F1 is, and more so than do Racing Point or Toro Rosso. That, at least, is the understanding of the claim that I would defend. I have already admitted that F1 could surely survive in some form without Williams, or any other team, for that matter (yes, even Ferrari, though I think it is even more "essential" to it than Williams).

Quote:
Shriek
Wow, something actually positive from you! Perhaps that is why I agree to an extent with this.

Quote:
j-s
Frightening way to establish what you agree with.

Quote honestly, I can't imagine what anyone would find remotely frightening about that. Is it the exclamation point? If so, I think you are way overly sensitive.

Quote:
Shriek
I do think it's a fair assessment of your argument inasmuch as you provide no other grounds for your judgment that the team deserves no help beyond your view that it is inept, hence you seem to be claiming that they do not deserve help because they need help

Quote:
j-s
I seem to be claiming a lot of things, apparently. Do I believe Williams deserve charity right now? Nope. Can you legitimately translate that into an loose metaphor of objectivist theory? Perhaps. Does it really matter? Not one bit.
Let's move on. Let's keep Rand where she belongs: out of this forum.

I couldn't agree more. Rand really does not belong on this board (or anywhere else, if you ask me), which is precisely why I responded rather critically to your distinctly Randian post.

Funny how you had to repeat those Randian ideas once more, (i.e. there you go again) just before indicating that you'd like to "move on."

Quote:
Shriek
(BLA BLA BLA ABOUT FOLLOWING MERCEDES) ... but a good Randian can overlook all of that and pretend that teams like Williams are just inept and undeserving, surely

Quote:
j-s
There you go again. Why do you care how and why I follow this team? Ridiculous. You need and deserve some help to chill out!
Let me spoil F1 for you: gRAND prix. You're welcome.

Uh oh, an exclamation point. Should I be frightened now too? Why do inept arguers always resort to pretending those opposed to their views are somehow freaking out and need to "chill out"? I couldn't be more calm and your gesture of suggesting otherwise is lame (and lamely predictable).

You don't want anyone to take any interest in why and how you "support" Williams? Why then do you post to this board? That is ridiculous. Wait, never mind; I'm sure you'll now ask why I am interested in how and why you post to this board and we'll just go-around again.

Instead, why don't you just admit that you think Williams does not deserve anyone's help because they need help? You've had plenty of opportunity to provide some other reason. Is it just that you don't want your Randian clap-trap identified as such? I hope not, because it's really her half-baked, moronic views that are offensive, not her mere name. But, to be fair, if you leave her ideas out of here, I promise that I will refrain from mentioning her name in response.

Re: News and Stuff!
AlanJones 23 March, 2019 23:58
Quote:
shriekback
Quote:
AlanJones
Quote:
shriekback
Quote:
AlanJones
I think we can manage it on our own. Just time is the essence in everything.
The only question bothering me, is if Paddy should leave us.. who can and will take over? Who does dare to take on such a poisonous position at a team that is just a swamp of failed attempts to revive its once so glorious past.

No offense, but you seem to be contradicting yourself here: 'Williams can do it on their own. How can Williams possibly do it?'

In response...

First, Paddy is gone. There is not even the slightest chance he took an actual leave of absence at the start of a new season, especially given the situation the team is in. Seriously, there is no chance. True, there hasn't been an official announcement, but it is only a matter of time. Also, Paddy did not "leave" Williams; he was sacked.

Second, who would dare replace him? A: Quite literally anyone who is qualified for the job but does not presently hold one of the other available nine F1 Technical Director positions in the world. I think the situation is very similar to that of qualified F1 drivers. You just don't turn down the opportunity to take the position when it presents itself because it will very likely never present itself again. Just ask Robert Kubica who could have taken a reserve/test role at Ferrari but didn't. Could he perhaps have parlayed success there into a race seat there or elsewhere later? Sure, but could he gamble on that mere possibility when a race seat, even though in a struggling team, was his now? No way. Would Esteban Ocon--or pretty much any qualified driver (besides Alonso) have refused it had it been offered to them instead? Not a chance.

I don't know who Williams will eventually hire to do the job, but I am certain they are getting interested calls from all over the paddock and beyond. That is where I think another team might see the larger health of the sport as at stake and give Williams a break by making it easier for one of theirs to take the job and to start sooner than later.

Its not contradicting. I do think Williams can fight their demons on their own without help from the paddock. The how part on how can they do it, is something I didnt state. Its something you made up. I only asked who would want to fill the TD spot.

I don't see how I made anything up. I just meant to point out what appears to be a contradiction in your confidence/lack of confidence in the team (we can recover on our own/how will we find someone to take an essential position needed for any recovery?). That's all. If that offends you, sorry. You said it, however, and the appearance, however perhaps unintended, is truly there.

It doesn't offend me, but I haven't said that. Those are your words. It's your interpretation of my question. It is not a question "will Williams ever find someone". It is the question "who would want to burn themselves on the TD spot at Williams." It's a totally different question. And it's not contradicting in any way to my statement that I do think Williams can salvage itself.




http://oi60.tinypic.com/24eyh6f.jpg

Re: News and Stuff!
j-s 24 March, 2019 03:44
Fun post, shriek. Thanks for the laughs. And groans.

Re: News and Stuff!
The Terminator 24 March, 2019 11:49
Quote:
boro1986willliamsf1
Why all the squabbling among Williams fans good God the team is struggling now the fans a turning on themselves bloody hell get a grip its only a sport not real life

You sir are a sane voice in a den of imploding self pity. I read this forum every day, but decline to post because of the increasing blame game and the desperate need to be the poster with the biggest dick.

Good luck with the Boro, if it helps you feel better I am an Ipswich season ticket holdersmiling smiley

Re: News and Stuff!
Stu69 24 March, 2019 14:32
Well done. I am a life long Ipswich fan since Bobby was in charge. Following the tractor boys is about as fulfilling as following Williams at the mo but we live in hope!!!

Re: News and Stuff!
boro1986willliamsf1 24 March, 2019 16:17
[quote Stu69]Well done. I am a life long Ipswich fan since Bobby was in charge. Following the tractor boys is about as fulfilling as following Williams at the mo but we live in hope!!![/quote
With Middlesbrough struggling at time Williams in deep @#$%& what are we going to do or carry on supporting threw ups and Downs as always Boro till I die Williams fan till they are no longer and hope that is for a lot longer



100% Williams
WILL SUPPORT WILLIAMS AS LONG AS THEY HAVE A TEAM

Re: News and Stuff!
phatjack 24 March, 2019 17:05
j-s thumbs downthumbs down

Re: News and Stuff!
shriekback 24 March, 2019 17:07
Quote:
j-s
Fun post, shriek. Thanks for the laughs. And groans.

Yes, same here.

Perhaps it appeared we were engaging in a "biiggest dick" contest to others (sorry to all if that was the case), but at least we weren't reduced to talking about the trials of being an Ipswich or Boro fan on a Williams F1 board.

Re: News and Stuff!
shriekback 24 March, 2019 17:13
Quote:
The Terminator
Quote:
boro1986willliamsf1
Why all the squabbling among Williams fans good God the team is struggling now the fans a turning on themselves bloody hell get a grip its only a sport not real life

You sir are a sane voice in a den of imploding self pity. I read this forum every day, but decline to post because of the increasing blame game and the desperate need to be the poster with the biggest dick.

Good luck with the Boro, if it helps you feel better I am an Ipswich season ticket holdersmiling smiley

I disagree (as you might expect). I think it would get mighty boring around here if we all just held hands and sang Kum Ba Yah together. Besides, why do you need to commiserate concerning the low fortunes of your respective favorite football teams if you're not supposed to really care at all about sports and insist upon an arbitrary exclusion of them from "real life"?

Re: News and Stuff!
Fair Dinkum Pole 25 March, 2019 10:21
Quote:
The Terminator
Quote:
boro1986willliamsf1
Why all the squabbling among Williams fans good God the team is struggling now the fans a turning on themselves bloody hell get a grip its only a sport not real life

You sir are a sane voice in a den of imploding self pity. I read this forum every day, but decline to post because of the increasing blame game and the desperate need to be the poster with the biggest dick.

Good luck with the Boro, if it helps you feel better I am an Ipswich season ticket holdersmiling smiley
plus me two ... ooo boy (Sm136) (not a Ipswich fun but I can hear you mate)

Re: News and Stuff!
Fair Dinkum Pole 26 March, 2019 10:39
Quote:
j-s
Fun post, shriek. Thanks for the laughs. And groans.
Yep.... that's about sums it up

Re: News and Stuff!
Williams-123 26 March, 2019 11:15
Fair Dinkum (Sm128)

Re: News and Stuff!
Fair Dinkum Pole 26 March, 2019 12:42
Quote:
Williams-123
Fair Dinkum (Sm128)
Thanks mate
another 3 days and we will stop @#$%& about Williams and as usual support every one at Williams including two of the best drivers on the field: GR and RK !!!
(alphabetic order no offence :-)

and I hope that all of us have something to smile about by Sunday afternoon / evening
(after midnight in my case )
(Sm128) cheers to you all

Re: News and Stuff!
dot_com 26 March, 2019 18:20
Is there a test session after the Bahrain GP? I have heard that Schumacher junior will be testing in a session this year, for Ferrari and Alfa? Is this a test that all teams will be involved in? Possibly an opportunity for us to test some new parts, if we’ve made any progress in combating the fundamental flaws of the car?

Re: News and Stuff!
Fair Dinkum Pole 26 March, 2019 23:28
Quote:
dot_com
Is there a test session after the Bahrain GP? I have heard that Schumacher junior will be testing in a session this year, for Ferrari and Alfa? Is this a test that all teams will be involved in? Possibly an opportunity for us to test some new parts, if we’ve made any progress in combating the fundamental flaws of the car?

the two-day test in Bahrain, begins on Tuesday till Wednesday after the Grand Prix at Sakhir
wonder if all three drivers including Nicholas Latifi will have have a go in this test
and Im sure it will be very beneficial to speed up recovery
I'm still optimist and I'm sure that sooner rather then later we will have reason to be happy

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