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You were saying Duffer
Whitey*~@ (IP Logged)
15 April, 2012 08:47
Quote:
Duffer
If Vettel hadn't have been shunted off last race he'd be smashing MW in points despite being down a couple of tenths in qually.
I tip Vettel to finish in front of Mark again here. All this gloating and putting down of Seb will only come back to bite us.

Webber finished in 4th and Vettel finished in 5th,...You were saying Duffer.



http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/3654/webberalonso.jpg
----Webber versus Alonso----

 
Re: You were saying Duffer
Hall_Green_Wolf (IP Logged)
15 April, 2012 08:49
Mark appears to have this car hooked up better than vettel.

Vettel looks, well very average.

 
Re: You were saying Duffer
Ozzy Osbone (IP Logged)
15 April, 2012 08:58
Mark only just beat him despite starting way up the grid. Not that convincing but it'll do.

 
Re: You were saying Duffer
Whitey*~@ (IP Logged)
15 April, 2012 09:05
Ozzy I think Mark stopped one more time than Vettel and still beat him, so Mark smashed Vettel by 25 seconds.



http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/3654/webberalonso.jpg
----Webber versus Alonso----

 
Re: You were saying Duffer
growler (IP Logged)
15 April, 2012 09:13
Lol - no he didn't - he just nicked it the fact that he stopped once more doesn't give him a 25 second advantage - the time spent in the extra stop gave him fresher rubber, which means he was a little bit faster over the race difference.

Both guys looking pretty happy in post race interviews.



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Re: You were saying Duffer
Whitey*~@ (IP Logged)
15 April, 2012 09:15
Look at the points Duffer look at the points, Webber in front of Vettel.(Sm13)

01 Lewis Hamilton 45
02 Jenson Button 43
03 Fernando Alonso 37
04 Mark Webber 36
05 Sebastian Vettel 28

06 Nico Rosberg 25
07 Sergio Perez 22
08 Kimi Räikkönen 16
09 Bruno Senna 14
10 Kamui Kobayashi 9



http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/3654/webberalonso.jpg
----Webber versus Alonso----

 
Re: You were saying Duffer
Whitey*~@ (IP Logged)
15 April, 2012 09:16
I see what you are saying Growler, but anyway in the end Webber beat him.



http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/3654/webberalonso.jpg
----Webber versus Alonso----

 
Re: You were saying Duffer
Whitey*~@ (IP Logged)
15 April, 2012 09:53
Now that I have started this thread Vettel will probably come back and smash Webber for the rest of the season haha.



http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/3654/webberalonso.jpg
----Webber versus Alonso----

 
Re: You were saying Duffer
K1 (IP Logged)
15 April, 2012 10:29
sorry growler but i don't buy that argument in full at all. the same option was there for vettel and he chose not run it. in actual elapsed track time webber did substantially outdrive vettel despite the closeness of the finish.

 
Re: You were saying Duffer
phatjack (IP Logged)
15 April, 2012 10:42
Quote:
Whitey*~@
Look at the points Duffer look at the points, Webber in front of Vettel.(Sm13)
01 Lewis Hamilton 45
02 Jenson Button 43
03 Fernando Alonso 37
04 Mark Webber 36
05 Sebastian Vettel 28

06 Nico Rosberg 25
07 Sergio Perez 22
08 Kimi Räikkönen 16
09 Bruno Senna 14
10 Kamui Kobayashi 9

Happy for the antipodeans on this day but bookmarks this post.



"If I had only known, I would have been a locksmith." - Einstein

 
Re: You were saying Duffer
growler (IP Logged)
15 April, 2012 12:16
Quote:
sorry growler but i don't buy that argument in full at all. the same option was there for vettel and he chose not run it. in actual elapsed track time webber did substantially outdrive vettel despite the closeness of the finish.

It is not a case of "buying it" - it is a fact. I was arguing against Whitey's declaration that in reality Webber beat Seb by 25secs. This is not true. They both travelled the same distance (Seb actually went a bit further, but we'll ignore that). Mark actually beat Seb by 2.559 seconds.

The strategy they used to get to the finish is irrelevant.



Admin@racingbulls.net
www.racingbulls.net
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Re: You were saying Duffer
Duffer (IP Logged)
15 April, 2012 13:08
LMAO @ K1...

Webber not very convincing, gaining just 2 places. Vettel had the better strategy and gained 6 places.

Webber lost 3 places in the first lap AGAIN.



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Re: You were saying Duffer
phatjack (IP Logged)
15 April, 2012 18:03
Quote:
K1
sorry growler but i don't buy that argument in full at all. the same option was there for vettel and he chose not run it. in actual elapsed track time webber did substantially outdrive vettel despite the closeness of the finish.

A favorite Andretti quote of mine is opinions are like @ssholes and everyone has one.

kenji this deserved a thread because? We'll ignore that fact that Whitey could have settled his pro antipodean dispute in private with another antipodean.



"If I had only known, I would have been a locksmith." - Einstein



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 15/04/2012 18:06 by phatjack.

 
Re: You were saying Duffer
K1 (IP Logged)
15 April, 2012 22:44
growler, consider this. webber made three stops which at approx 25secs per stop equal 75 secs, off track. vettel made two stops which equals 50 secs, ergo webber had to make up a total of 27.5 secs to take fourth place which he did.

webber must have consistently banged in faster laps to overcome this deficiency. to me that says he 'outdrove' vettel. i may be seeing this differently to you. where have i gone wrong with the math?

 
Re: You were saying Duffer
Ozzy Osbone (IP Logged)
15 April, 2012 23:24
He had more time on fresher tyres. Pretty basic F1 stuff really. Before the race the prediction was that the 2 stop and 3 stop race would be about the same in terms of overall time. That's because the 3 stopper has an extra set of tyres so he can push harder for longer.

What's not to understand?

 
Re: You were saying Duffer
Duffer (IP Logged)
16 April, 2012 03:57
I guess K1's imaginary team would always be on one stoppers then eh? That means just once in the pits and less time lost. You should be an F1 strategist k1!



http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii244/jock298/Duffer_2Sig.png

 
Re: You were saying Duffer
K1 (IP Logged)
16 April, 2012 04:44
'he had more time on fresher tyres'. actually he had less time on track because he had a 27.5 sec deficit to recover which he did...admirably.

your smarta$$ comment actually sits well with me. i would rather see races won or lost on track than artificial results posted due to races being won or lost in the pits.

with all the safety measures in place the FIA let races be run where if anyone strays off the racing line for whatever reason they risk a serious accident as the marbles are now worse than ever. the images shown during the race were quite unbelievable.

 
Re: You were saying Duffer
LoudHoward (IP Logged)
16 April, 2012 05:36
The teams worked this all out before the race, so I'm having trouble grasping your point. The amount of tyre changes you do is similar to having a lighter fuel load back when we had refuelling.

At 2-stop and a 3-stop were simulated to end up at the end of the race within a few seconds of each other (track position at the end to the 2-stopper, speed to the 3-stopper). This is obviously done without any variable for the driver, funnily enough not with the 3-stopper having to put in a super human effort to make up 25 seconds that are just stolen from him for no benefit...



http://www.users.on.net/~loud_howard/webber/sigs/webbersiglatest4.jpg
http://www.patronisef1.com - My solution to F1's 'bore' problem.

 
Re: You were saying Duffer
Ozzy Osbone (IP Logged)
16 April, 2012 08:05
Webs does look a bit like Christopher Reeve though. Put him in a red cape with his undercrackers outside his racing suit and he could do anything.

K1, I think you have some issues with admitting you are just plain wrong mate. As LH says, the simulation was that the two strategies would get you to the finish line at about the same time give or take a second or so. Who was driving makes no difference. Time spent in the pits is made up by having fresh tyres for more laps. I suspect you know all this but as usual, you can't climb down and admit you are wrong and you will argue and argue until you look ridiculous (which you will now accuse me of looking).

Vettel chose the 2 stopper as a 3 stop means you are dropping back into slower traffic more often and you have to be confident you can get past them, like Jenson did. Mark couldn't pass the slower cars as easily so his 3 stopper didn't pay off. That's it really. Hard to compare the 2 races although Seb made up many more places than Mark.

 
Re: You were saying Duffer
growler (IP Logged)
16 April, 2012 08:26
I'll put it as simply as I can K1:-

Mark and Seb started the race at the same time. They finished 2.559 seconds apart. Therefore, Mark was not 25 seconds faster than Seb.


The rate that Mark tyres were dropping off, I'm not sure he could have made a two stopper work without a Kimi-esque drop back through the field at the end of his stints.



Admin@racingbulls.net
www.racingbulls.net
http://www.users.on.net/~washing/misc/RBR/growler-sig.gif



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 16/04/2012 08:29 by growler.

 
Re: You were saying Duffer
Whitey*~@ (IP Logged)
16 April, 2012 08:40
Quote:
Duffer
Webber lost 3 places in the first lap AGAIN.

So did Vettel.



http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/3654/webberalonso.jpg
----Webber versus Alonso----

 
Re: You were saying Duffer
numbnuts (IP Logged)
16 April, 2012 09:36
If one strategy was faster than the other then they both would have been on the same strategy - obviously there was @#$%& all difference in them so it was 50/50. At the end of the race Webber finished ahead of Vettel because at that point in the race he had a faster car and was able to pull off the pass - end of story. Only the results count at the end of the day - you don't have to write down how you do it.

"If the dog hadn't stopped to sh#t, he would have caught the hare".

 
Re: You were saying Duffer
K1 (IP Logged)
16 April, 2012 10:31
ozzy you are quite right on some points and you are equally quite wrong on others.i am fully aware of the differences between fresher tyres on a three stopper but there was still a 25sec deficit which webber had to make up. what i actually said, if you care to actually reread what i posted, was that webber 'outdrove' vettel, meaning faster laps. he did that and finished up 2,5 secs ahead of vettel

i have no problem with acknowledging a point when i am wrong. i think also that you should reciprocate.

 
Re: You were saying Duffer
K1 (IP Logged)
16 April, 2012 10:36
what a strategist you are duffer, 'i tip vettel to finish in front of mark again etc etc etc. looking rather foolish are we? so what is your strategic tip for bahrein?

 
Re: You were saying Duffer
Ozzy Osbone (IP Logged)
16 April, 2012 11:27
Yes, he made up the 25 seconds because he had 3 sets of tyres. That's the point everyone is trying to get through to you. It's not a talent thing. It would be the same for any driver. Webber didn't make any better use of his car than Vettel. End of story.

 
Re: You were saying Duffer
K1 (IP Logged)
16 April, 2012 11:32
at long last you have acknowledged what i have been saying ozz. webber outdrove vettel. end of story.

 
Re: You were saying Duffer
K1 (IP Logged)
16 April, 2012 11:39
just as a footnote ozz. 'it would be the same for any driver'. if you put karthikeyan in the webbers car would he produce a 2.5 sec win over vettel?

 
Re: You were saying Duffer
LoudHoward (IP Logged)
16 April, 2012 11:53
I think they both got pretty much everything out of the strategies they were on.

Mark earned the grid advantage and the subsequent lap 1 time gain he got by default with that, and that was the difference. Mark had a 5 second lead over Seb after lap 1, and 4 slower cars as traffic between them, and by the end of the race Seb was closer and only a single position behind. Hard to make an argument either way about who out-drove who in the race. Qually pretty much sealed this one I think and Mark did the job there. Pity about the mistakes, would've been nice to grab a podium sad smiley

Awful starts from both, Seb admitted his brain fade, Mark just his usual flop of some stage of the getaway; -9 before T1 apex in 3 races, urgh.



http://www.users.on.net/~loud_howard/webber/sigs/webbersiglatest4.jpg
http://www.patronisef1.com - My solution to F1's 'bore' problem.

 
Re: You were saying Duffer
Ozzy Osbone (IP Logged)
16 April, 2012 12:14
I haven't acknowledged what you are saying K1. Webber did not out-drive Vettel. Vettel made up more places and therefore did a better job in my view.

Mark finished ahead because he qualified better which is fine but Seb was again more convincing in the race.

 
Re: You were saying Duffer
K1 (IP Logged)
16 April, 2012 22:11
correct me if i am wrong ozz but vettel, by running a two stopper, relied upon track position to gain over the three stoppers otherwise why do it?

whereas webber lost track positions due to his extra stop and therefore had to rely on many factors to regain track positions. i suggest you read webbers interview re his strategy where he outlines the difficulties he had. he had to make many passing moves if he was to make the strategy work. the red bull did not have straight line speed upon which combined with the DRS would enable him to make some of those passes necessary.

in his own words this meant that he had to make most of his passes off the straight and this led him into possible dangers with the the profusion of marbles. he goes on to outline all the other issues which needed to be overcome as well.

obviously both strategies would've been worked over in detail. the two stopper was the safest route and the three stopper would have to embrace a lot more difficult probabilities. webbers passing moves were some of the very best i have seen and he did the business rather well, all things considered. as for vettel being more convincing in the race....you have to be dreaming.

why haven't you responded to my foot note ozz, re a 'talent thing'?

 
Re: You were saying Duffer
LoudHoward (IP Logged)
16 April, 2012 23:45
2011 - Driver under performs in qualifying, ends lap 1 deep towards the back of the midfield and comes back to finish right behind his teammate; heroic once in a lifetime drive.

2012 - Driver under performs in qualifying, ends lap 1 deep towards the back of the midfield and comes back to finish right behind his teammate; substantially out driven.



http://www.users.on.net/~loud_howard/webber/sigs/webbersiglatest4.jpg
http://www.patronisef1.com - My solution to F1's 'bore' problem.

 
Re: You were saying Duffer
Ozzy Osbone (IP Logged)
17 April, 2012 00:16
Please remind me of the footnote re. talent K1, I must have missed this.

What you seem to be saying in your last post is that Vettel chose the easy option to make himself look good, whereas Mark chose the difficult hero option. Damn, it's tough but pure aussie grit can win the day. Like Chuck Norris he set himself an impossible target but his sturdy chin got him through.

I can tell you that Webber would have chosen the option, 2 or 3 stops which he and his engineers felt BEFORE the race would give him the most benefit. Same with Vettel and every other driver on the grid. Maybe he chose wrong, maybe not, we'll never really know.

But to say that he had the more difficult strategy and was some kind of hero to overcome it is well...

If he should have chosen 2 stops then he and his engineers made a mistake. End of. Very difficult choice I'm sure and easy after the fact but you seem to be saying he is some kind of hero because he did OK with a rubbish strategy.

The fact is that for the 3rd race in a row this year, Vettel was better in the race. It's closer than 2011 but Mark is not beating him yet.

 
Re: You were saying Duffer
SydneyF1Fan (IP Logged)
17 April, 2012 03:03
I think Seb did pretty well to survive his long last stint on bald tyres.

As he admitted, he was a sitting duck in the last few laps and did his best to defend his position. Pretty good result from his shocking start.



http://i807.photobucket.com/albums/yy358/SydneyF1Fan/SydneyF1FanSignatureWinner-v3.gif

 
Re: You were saying Duffer
Vote Quimby (IP Logged)
17 April, 2012 03:16
Quote:
SydneyF1Fan
I think Seb did pretty well to survive his long last stint on bald tyres.
As he admitted, he was a sitting duck in the last few laps and did his best to defend his position. Pretty good result from his shocking start.

Agree.

Look what happened to Kimmi.



Http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii244/jock298/quimby.jpg

 
Re: You were saying Duffer
K1 (IP Logged)
17 April, 2012 03:26
well ozzie, re 'talent' read your own previous posts or do i have to reprint it for you?

this has nothing to do with 'aussie grit' at all. both strategies had inherent possible problems but a three stopper had more than a two stopper, in my opinion.

webber had to fight more than one battle on track to get the result that he did. that alone is worth a lot in my book, but obviously not yours. that's all cool by me. i am not fussed at all.

 
Re: You were saying Duffer
K1 (IP Logged)
17 April, 2012 22:25
as a further footnote to this thread, i read on james allens site that the two stopper race sim indicated that that strategy was approximately 7 secs faster than a three stopper. the only caveat was that the tyres would be at the end of their life and that could wreck the two stop strategy. interesting, no?

 
Re: You were saying Duffer
LoudHoward (IP Logged)
18 April, 2012 03:47
Interesting in that it played out pretty much exactly like that? Seb was 5 seconds back from Mark after lap 1 and was prolly 3ish secs ahead, then his tyres went which was the risk. I don't think he had an ideal split with his 2-stop strat, the first stop was a bit early.



http://www.users.on.net/~loud_howard/webber/sigs/webbersiglatest4.jpg
http://www.patronisef1.com - My solution to F1's 'bore' problem.

 
Re: You were saying Duffer
K1 (IP Logged)
18 April, 2012 08:40
it will be interesting tom see what strategy is employed in bahrein. the fastest seems to be a three stopper with the first stint on soft and the last two on the medium. given the high ambient a two stopper would be extremely 'ambitious'.

 
Re: You were saying Duffer
LoudHoward (IP Logged)
18 April, 2012 09:56
True, though for us perhaps not. If it's hot it might bring our tyre temps up into the "zone", or it could be just as you say and it could be lotso stops, it's all a bit bonkers this year really.

Hopefully we can qually better and get off the line...



http://www.users.on.net/~loud_howard/webber/sigs/webbersiglatest4.jpg
http://www.patronisef1.com - My solution to F1's 'bore' problem.

 
Re: You were saying Duffer
K1 (IP Logged)
18 April, 2012 10:20
exactement, mon ami. apparently red bull will be running the webber spec exhaust on both cars, or at least that is what some people are saying.

if so then it will be once again very interesting to see what the differences there are between webber and vettel post china evaluation. i guess the main question will be, have they tweaked the system to bring the handling back to vettels style in any way. roll on.

 
Re: You were saying Duffer
f1man (IP Logged)
19 April, 2012 23:19
no way thats silly i feel

the engineers who design systems wont give a toss, they will want the fastest spec on the car regardless. anyways just my opinion



Mark WEBBER 9smiling smiley hit wonder :-)

Should have been 12 wins except vettel stuffed up
Japan 2007- vettel runs into back of webber during SC ...WTF
Turkey 2010- vettel decides to drive into webber
Malaysia 2013- vettel decides he is just too awesome for team rules
I am a proud Mark Webber Fan
I am also proud that we won the war
I am also a Carlton supporter
I think, therfore i am!

 
Re: You were saying Duffer
Ozzy Osbone (IP Logged)
20 April, 2012 00:04
I predict 7 stops for Webber this race. Then he will really kick Seb's backside. Even if he finishes a lap down. We can take off 4 minutes in the pits and award him points accordingly.

 
Re: You were saying Duffer
f1man (IP Logged)
20 April, 2012 00:33
no way i predict at least 6 pit stops though



Mark WEBBER 9smiling smiley hit wonder :-)

Should have been 12 wins except vettel stuffed up
Japan 2007- vettel runs into back of webber during SC ...WTF
Turkey 2010- vettel decides to drive into webber
Malaysia 2013- vettel decides he is just too awesome for team rules
I am a proud Mark Webber Fan
I am also proud that we won the war
I am also a Carlton supporter
I think, therfore i am!

 
Re: You were saying Duffer
Duffer (IP Logged)
20 April, 2012 05:06
Quote:
k1
what a strategist you are duffer, 'i tip vettel to finish in front of mark again etc etc etc. looking rather foolish are we? so what is your strategic tip for bahrein?

That is a prediction, not a strategy...

K1, if I am in a lotus elise and Webber is in a dihatsu charade and we race on a track, if I win, did I out drive him?



http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii244/jock298/Duffer_2Sig.png

 
Re: You were saying Duffer
K1 (IP Logged)
20 April, 2012 06:04
yes, of course you are right duffer. a very poor choice of words. i shall go the corner of the room and put my hands on my head for 10 minutes.

doesn't alter the fact that you goofed up on your prediction and i see that there was no acknowledgement!! as for your hypothetical well it is just plain rubbish. we've moved on or hadn't you noticed?

more to the point....what are your tips for the bahrein race?

 
Re: You were saying Duffer
Ozzy Osbone (IP Logged)
20 April, 2012 20:03
Come on K1, you are not going to hold anyone to predictions are you? You spent the whole pre-season saying how it was impossible to predict the form, even thought the concensus has totally come true (Maccca good, RBR struggling a little but still fast, Ferrari junk, Merc fast but flakey, Sauber and Williams looking stronger). I think the only real red herrings from pre-season were Force India and Torro Rosso.

Predictions are fun, especially in F1 2012. Don't ruin it it by calling people up on it after the fact.

PS: Webs to finish 12 laps down in Bahrain.

 
Re: You were saying Duffer
K1 (IP Logged)
20 April, 2012 21:14
hahaha ozzie, check it out. i said that i wouldn't make any predictions and i also said that anyone who did would be hard pressed to know or predict any reasoned outcomes based on scant information.

now that we are three, soon to be four, races in it is possible to begin to see a 'direction'. i think maybe i was right. duffer suitably proved my point as his prediction, after only two races [got it right that time] was half a$$ed.

 
Re: You were saying Duffer
Duffer (IP Logged)
21 April, 2012 12:32
My tip for Bahrain is that you will correctly spell it at some stage.

I also see that now Vettel is back in front of Webber, he will stay in front comfortably for the rest of the year. Webbs has missed his chance to push ahead far enough to make a difference.

With Seb V starting in front of Mark, I can't see MW getting close to him.



http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii244/jock298/Duffer_2Sig.png

 
Re: You were saying Duffer
Hall_Green_Wolf (IP Logged)
21 April, 2012 20:27
My tip for Bahrain is that you will correctly spell it at some stage.

he he i aint the only one that noticed that then.

 
Re: You were saying Duffer
K1 (IP Logged)
21 April, 2012 21:23
what a lot of weak responses. when put to the test all you can come up with is a criticism of my spelling of bahrein.

 
Re: You were saying Duffer
K1 (IP Logged)
21 April, 2012 21:28
actually chaps, wickionary gives 'bahrein' as an alternative spelling, as a proper noun. when i was there very many years ago that is how i spelled the word...and i still do. so what! doesn't alter the fact that your arguments are low brow does it?

 
Re: You were saying Duffer
Hall_Green_Wolf (IP Logged)
22 April, 2012 08:58
Calm down darling its only a game (Sm160)

 
Re: You were saying Duffer
K1 (IP Logged)
22 April, 2012 09:57
HGW... i am always calm when responding despite what you may think. my 'wah' is under control. enjoy the race.

 
Re: You were saying Duffer
phatjack (IP Logged)
22 April, 2012 11:07
Quote:
Kenji can be written using different kanji characters and can mean:
賢二, "wise, second"
健二, "healthy, second"
健次, "healthy, next"
謙二, "modest, second"
研二, "research, second"
憲次, "constitution, next"
健司, "healthy, rule"
健治, "healthy, govern"
賢治, "wise, govern"
健児, "healthy, child"
健児, "k1, tool"



"If I had only known, I would have been a locksmith." - Einstein

 
Re: You were saying Duffer
K1 (IP Logged)
22 April, 2012 23:57
you are a very sad person czibor.

 
Re: You were saying Duffer
f1man (IP Logged)
23 April, 2012 03:24
so should i just revert back to calling Australia , New South Wales, i mean the whole land was known and named that so where the hell is Australia oh i mean New South Wales



Mark WEBBER 9smiling smiley hit wonder :-)

Should have been 12 wins except vettel stuffed up
Japan 2007- vettel runs into back of webber during SC ...WTF
Turkey 2010- vettel decides to drive into webber
Malaysia 2013- vettel decides he is just too awesome for team rules
I am a proud Mark Webber Fan
I am also proud that we won the war
I am also a Carlton supporter
I think, therfore i am!

 
Re: You were saying Duffer
phatjack (IP Logged)
26 April, 2012 00:41
kengi, I am concerned Whitey has abandoned this thread. At least you understand the term the "wise, second".



"If I had only known, I would have been a locksmith." - Einstein


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