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Williams team orders issue resolved

By Andrew Hooper
April 1 2014

 
 Williams team orders issue resolved
 
Massa leads Bottas
 

The recent Malaysian Grand Prix saw the Williams Martini team publicly issue team orders to there drivers telling Felipe Massa to let team-mate Valtteri Bottas past in the later stages of the race. But the team through Chief Test & Support Engineer Rod Nelson have made it clear that the issue has been resolved.

Felipe had been told to let Valtteri past so that the Finn could attempt to challenge Jenson Button for sixth place. Nelson said that he and the drivers sat down after the race to talk about what happened and make sure the matter was resolved.

"We have sat down with both drivers to talk through what happened this evening here in Malaysia," said Nelson.

"They understand the team's position and why they were asked to do what we asked them to do, which was strategically what we felt was best for the team, allowing each driver to attack button individually to try and get ahead.

"It's now been addressed and we have moved on as a team.

"Our focus is now on Bahrain next weekend."

For Felipe, who had disregarded the instructions from his team, he maintains that he has a strong relationship with the team. Felipe said: "I am fine, to be honest I have no problem with the team and a very good relationship."

"What I did was correct. I am trying to do my best for the team and that's the most important thing.

"I'm sure the result would not have changed even if I had let him by, so it's the same.

"The team respects me 100 per cent and they showed they respect me after the race, so I have no problem at all.

"What's happened today was maybe not what I expected, but what I did was correct."

 

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Williams team orders issue resolved
Discussion started by Williams F1 , 01/04/2014 14:58
Williams F1
01/04/2014 14:58
What do you think? You can have your say by posting below.
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Cj5
01/04/2014 18:45
Anyone want to bet Susie Wolff gets a seat in an actual race before season's end? I'll root for Massa when he's sporting Williams-Martini livery - but I'm not a fan of this particular Brazilian.

Lurcher
01/04/2014 19:57
Nasr is our reserve driver. He's in GP2 again this year so will be one to watch.

Cj5
01/04/2014 20:49
Guess my Susie Wolff comment was wishful thinking (sigh). Susie apparently is (or was?) scheduled to drive practice runs this summer.

Here's an article:
[www.wheels24.co.za]

With Toto at Mercedes and Nasr potentially a conduit to a Brazilian Bank sponsorship, I can understand how Nasr might be the future. And he could replace Massa today for all of me!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014:04:01:20:51:02 by Cj5.

evisf1
01/04/2014 22:59
First I liked Massa, I liked him alot. But after last weekend, not so much anymore. Team told him 6 times to let Valtteri pass him, but he didn't obey!!! 6 times! Check it from here: [www.evisf1.com]

evisf1.com

Bond
02/04/2014 01:57
Quote:
evisf1
First I liked Massa, I liked him alot. But after last weekend, not so much anymore. Team told him 6 times to let Valtteri pass him, but he didn't obey!!! 6 times! Check it from here: [www.evisf1.com]

My feeling was the same as you.

Though I think team management was to partially blamed for poor communication to both driver of the rules of engagement.

But that audio really is damning isn't it! Thank for posting!

Mtmateus
02/04/2014 04:02
The order to Felipe was "do not hold him up" and to Valteri "overtake him now" ... but he coudn't.

Radio communication is clear, Bottas in his own words says: " ... there is no chance I could get through".
So, Valteri was not able to overtake Felipe but would overtake Button in less then 3 laps??? Maybe MacLaren would say "Button, Valteri is faster than you, let him pass!"

But this situation is not the problem, it is consequence of the real mistake: "Rod Nelson´s orders". It was a disaster. I understand he is a technical man and desesperately seeking better results but he should "keep calm" and understand what is really in question before made a decision.

It was the first race of Felipe in the Williams team and he had been presented as the team leader, so it was not the time and never using "Valteri is faster than you"! Although I think Felipe should have left Ferrari when his contract finished in 2010, I am not here to judge Felipe's reasons to have accepted "Fernando is faster than you" in 2010 but Ferrari had waited for him since his accident in 2009, Ferrari driver means prestige and Fernando Alonso is probably the best driver in F1. I also would like to mention that Ferrari is known by using driver 1 and 2 strategy but this was not the case of Williams, so it was very strange that order. Anyway, P6 X P7, seriously, what is the difference? And Valteri is not Fernando Alonso ! He has a lot to prove ...

So, the best shot would be "Guys, only 3 laps, so cool the cars and bring them home". It was the second race, the team was in good mood and improving ... I am not sure if Rod Nelson is the right man for that position ... well, these are my two cents.

Next stop Bahrain, I am curious to see this dispute on the track !



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2014:04:02:07:19:57 by Mtmateus.

crusty_bread
02/04/2014 08:07
Mtmateus, the question is not whether Bottas could have overtaken Massa, but whether he could have overtaken Button. from my POV, Massa came incredibly close to overtaking Button, but he failed, when I felt he aught to have finished off the move. From there, he either shot his tyres or gave up, because he was no longer a threat despite being faster. From Bottas' POV Massa was too evenly matched. He couldn't exploit Williams' superior acceleration or top speed because Massa had the same advantage. All Massa had to do was get a decent exit onto the straight. The same didnt apply to Button who had to push in the middle stint to open a gap, and with Bottas looking genuinely fast at that stage of the race on fresher tyres, that looked less likely- Button would have been a sitting duck come the final sector. Finally, As subjective as this is, Massa hasn't overtaken anyone yet- not even Magnussen with a broken wing. Bottas passed Nagnussen and Kyvat later like they weren't there. Massa got desperately close but he was outmanoeuvred. We can't assume the same would have happened to Bottas.

Mikef1
02/04/2014 08:39
massa overtook a sauber in the early stages

GPL
02/04/2014 12:34
More points for the team phill more money for development
Has he forgot this already.

This year is about getting the team back on track and bringing in as much prize money as possible not drivers
egos

Nuff said Drivers pep talk over.

Do as you are told as per driver agreements.

The team rules were fair if no gain then switchback.

Blizz
02/04/2014 12:40
Quote:
crusty_bread
Bottas passed Nagnussen and Kyvat later like they weren't there. Massa got desperately close but he was outmanoeuvred. We can't assume the same would have happened to Bottas.

Can't really say that Massa vs Magnussen at the early stages was the same as when Bottas was against him. Bottas had 6 lap fresher tires and did the overtake on the very same lap he exited the pits. Not to mention that through out the whole race, McLaren were always better in the second sector (0.2-0.3 secs) and our driver had problems being close before the first straight because of this. This shows our aero problems. Not really seeing how Bottas would have managed to do a greater job than Massa there and that's why i would think Massa really saw why Bottas wouldn't be able to do much, hence not letting past.

Still, ain't happy how Massa ignored the orders, even when asked multiple times.

backsoon
02/04/2014 12:57
If you are 2 tenths faster than the one in front of you it may not be enough to overtake.
If the one behind you is two tenths faster than you it may not be enough for him to overtake you
But if you let the one behind you to go through this one could be 4 tenths faster than the one in front and that may be enough to overtake.
That was the entire issue IMHO.

crusty_bread
02/04/2014 15:29
Blizz, you saw the advantage fresher tyres brought, and you saw how close Massa came to overtaking Button. Why assume Bottas would have stood no chance? What harm would it have been to allow Bottas a go at Button, and switch back at the end had he failed? Arguing that Bottas only overtook Magnussen because of fresher tyres is not a counter-argument, because he wasted no time at all dispatching him, and had 6 laps fresher tyres than Button.

But the main bug-bare I have with Massa is that he came desperately close- then nothing. Maybe he overheated his tyres trying to get on terms with Button, but whatever, he was no longer performing at Williams' ultimate potential and was therefore nothing more than a roadblock.

tomazy
02/04/2014 15:30
I didnt want to coment on the team order stuff, but I just have to. I wasn't pleased that team orders were given to the drivers in the first place, but I was even more annoyed by the lack of respect to the team that Massa showed by not doing what he was asked to do. I lost a lot of respect for him as a Williams driver. Lets not forget thet the driver is employed by the team.

The thing is, that Massa was 3-4 tenths faster than Button and almost overtook him, and Bottas was 3-4 tenths faster than Massa. I fully expect that Bottas would overtake button if he would be in front of Felipe. He would probably overtake Felipe too, if Massa weren't in DRS zone of Button most of the laps.

Cj5
02/04/2014 15:36
"But the main bug-bare I have with Massa is that he came desperately close- then nothing. Maybe he overheated his tyres trying to get on terms with Button, but whatever, he was no longer performing at Williams' ultimate potential and was therefore nothing more than a roadblock."

WELL SAID! I completely agree.

Can't find it now, but one account I read said the team felt Bottas had fresher tires and a cooler engine - so they elected to fight rather than coast. But, in the end, the quarterback wouldn't take the play sent in by the coach!

crusty_bread
02/04/2014 15:43
Well hopefully no permanent damage has been done, and Williams and Massa both learn from this, because both sides could have handled things better. "It's now been addressed" is not quite the level of constructive feedback I was hoping to hear.

A.Fant
02/04/2014 15:46
The more I think about it, the more I get @#$%& off at Massa.

It's one thing to disobey a team order during the race in the heat of the moment. But even after having everything explained to him after the race, that it was in the interest of the team as Bottas had the better chance to pass Button etc. etc. he still feels he has done nothing wrong and is obviously primarily racing for himself. The entitlement is staggering, the WDC points aren't worth squat except stroking a drivers' ego, he should realize that he is an employee - nothing more.

How can he feel he did something 100% correct if he actively hurt the team's chances to maximize their WCC points?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014:04:02:15:48:15 by A.Fant.

Bond
02/04/2014 17:16
Is there any lap analysis timing charts anywhere posted for the drivers?

I hadn't seen any, so I want to at least put the Massa apologist on notice with data vs. favoritism.

On other social media platform, it is starting to smell like 'Webber-like activism' (whining) from the Massa fanboyz.

The classic one floating on interwebs:
Massa was .02-.03sec faster than Button but couldn't pass him.
Bottas was .02-.03 faster than Massa & fresher tires & could pass Massa.
Team ok Bottas to pass with all safeties on.

But Massa fanboyz say - no way Bottas could pass Button even if he is let by Massa.

Wut what?!! Not the sharpest tools those Massa fanboyz...maybe just tools.

tomazy
02/04/2014 17:31
Quote:
Bond
Is there any lap analysis timing charts anywhere posted for the drivers?

Here you go -> link

And watching by live timing, Bottas was more carefoul (he slowed more than the other relative to his pace) in sectors that had yellow flags, or a litlle rain.

cronos666
02/04/2014 19:20
dont think this issue is solved AT ALL. i think the relationship of massa with the team is broken.

WILLIAMS-F1-Fan
02/04/2014 19:21
"Felipe, the team needs you to pass Button in the next two laps. If you can't complete the move, we'd like Valtteri to take a shot at him ok?"

That would have worked brilliantly.

The end.

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j78/lael_2006/Sig.jpg
BATracing F1 Just Got More Addicting
My Instagram smiling smiley


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Bond
02/04/2014 20:34
Quote:
tomazy
Quote:
Bond
Is there any lap analysis timing charts anywhere posted for the drivers?

Here you go -> link

And watching by live timing, Bottas was more carefoul (he slowed more than the other relative to his pace) in sectors that had yellow flags, or a litlle rain.

Brilliant! Thanks Tomazy!

35 of 56 laps Bottas > Massa. Man data doesn't lie.

tomazy
02/04/2014 20:40
No problem, But you have to take into consideration that bottas was almost allwais on 2 laps freasher tires than Massa.

Bond
02/04/2014 20:57
I'm trying not to take sides & just leave the lap times do the talking.

People can always introduce caveats such as tires or Massa was being blocked by Button in dirty air.

While some view it as Massa undermined that total team points strategy & his supporters view it as favoritism...

The fact of the matter is that Bottas was faster on 35 of 56 laps & that Williams was acting in the best interest of the team.

Trying to safely bring both cars in while maximizing the team points is not a malicious objective.

If they had crash while being allowed to race...hmmm bright idea?? LOL!

andy si
03/04/2014 10:47
Quote:
cronos666
dont think this issue is solved AT ALL. i think the relationship of massa with the team is broken.

I also think that this issue is not yet solved, but will reserve my judgement on the driver team relationship.

I will add this.. I think it's up to the team to manage their driver pace and position during a race and this year this is even simpler than before. I think in the case of Williams, who are not in a position to fight for WDC but have a goal to score as many WCC points as possible, this is a PRIORITY of our pit wall!

You can manage to put one racer in front of the other in one pit stop alone and let them get on with it.

Bond
03/04/2014 17:00
Quote:
andy si

You can manage to put one racer in front of the other in one pit stop alone and let them get on with it.

I don't disagree with this at all Andy but I think I saw it mentioned by some1 that the opportunity was there to do that for Bottas in the first stint.

But according to times at this site that tomazy pointed me to:

[en.mclarenf-1.com]

It appears there was no real clear indication that VB or FM had a speed advantage in their first stints. So no decision could have been made prior to the first pitstop.

It was the next 2 stints that we saw VB show his speed superiority & that would have been time to jump the 19!

Cheers.

Blizz
03/04/2014 19:06
Quote:
Bond
Quote:
tomazy
Quote:
Bond
Is there any lap analysis timing charts anywhere posted for the drivers?

Here you go -> link

And watching by live timing, Bottas was more carefoul (he slowed more than the other relative to his pace) in sectors that had yellow flags, or a litlle rain.

Brilliant! Thanks Tomazy!

35 of 56 laps Bottas > Massa. Man data doesn't lie.
From 44 up to 56 right behind a McLaren.

Bond
03/04/2014 19:24
Quote:
Blizz
From 44 up to 56 right behind a McLaren.


Blizz - who are you referring to?

Lurcher
03/04/2014 19:38
Claire has apologised to both drivers on behalf of the team. Everyone is happy and great diplomacy from the classy helm at Grove.

Or is it?

One might, if one were a cynical old sod like me, think that Claire has managed to keep this story bubbling all week. Keep the Williams name in the headlines. For all we really know, the drivers and pit wall may have thought up this stunt before the season started and had a jolly good laugh in private after the race. Our guys are rarely so clumsy as to use a very memorable phrase without thinking of the consequences. Not on open radio.

Mr. Pink
03/04/2014 23:04
Oh do I love conspiracy theories eye rolling smiley

http://img292.imageshack.us/img292/8830/logoqz0.gif
Sir Frank: "It's what we do, we love doing it. It's like oxygen, it fixes you".

j-s
03/04/2014 23:15
I see no need to apologise to the drivers, least of all publicly. Sheesh. The issue has been put to rest finally, and that's good... but did it require an apology to diffuse the whole thing? Nonsense.

Why not just say something like "That's sorted and we're happy with the solution. Next question"

Oh well. Experience the softer side of Formula 1. Experience Williams!

evisf1
04/04/2014 17:57
I hope everything is now fine and it's all left behing. Now good weekend for Williams and lots of points. It's great that this season seems so much better than the last one.

But not going so great with Caterham. Finnish mtv wrote, that Caterham was slower than 6 GP2 cars... In the first free practice session. Comparing to GP2 practice times

Blizz
04/04/2014 20:47
Quote:
Bond
Quote:
Blizz
From 44 up to 56 right behind a McLaren.


Blizz - who are you referring to?

Oh sorry, should have specified. I was referring to the statement:

"35 of 56 laps Bottas > Massa. Man data doesn't lie."

From lap 44 till the end Massa was behind Button, who was slower than our boys, hence why Massa was loosing out to Bottas. Bottas meanwhile, up until lap 51 had a free track. So in a way, data does lie if you are trying to see who is the faster driver from these lap times.

Ozzy Osbone
04/04/2014 21:19
It is difficult. I just felt that on the day Bottas had a faster car. He seemed to be able to take a crisper line through the corners and get better traction off of them. I guess we'll never know and it's done now so let's move on.

Massa is not going to lie down and in many ways, I think that is a very good thing.

If Bottas really is the faster driver then he should be ahead on the grid most times so it won't be a problem. We'll see.

Bond
04/04/2014 21:49
Quote:
Blizz
Quote:
Bond
Quote:
Blizz
From 44 up to 56 right behind a McLaren.


Blizz - who are you referring to?

Oh sorry, should have specified. I was referring to the statement:

"35 of 56 laps Bottas > Massa. Man data doesn't lie."

From lap 44 till the end Massa was behind Button, who was slower than our boys, hence why Massa was loosing out to Bottas. Bottas meanwhile, up until lap 51 had a free track. So in a way, data does lie if you are trying to see who is the faster driver from these lap times.

Thanks for the clear-up blizz!
My thoughts are that at the end of the day there is a bunch of variables that we can interject or leave out if it suits our debate.

I choose to take the lap times in isolation for the drivers without any other caveats such as blocking traffic.

So when the team comes to me & say that based on lap times in conjunction with tires, they made this call, I've gotta go with the available data which for most of last Sunday & given the cards that were dealt to each driver: Bottas was faster than Massa for more laps.

& that if Massa couldn't make the pass on Button, then for safety & team sake, he shouldn't impede his own teammate & lessen the WCC points haul.

That to me is as simple a reason & doesn't require excuse making or introducing variables that weren't there when the drivers were right infront/behind each other.

So yes - data still by itself didn't lie here.
It's when people introduced other complicating variables that muddies the waters.

The team didn't handle the execution & messaging of its tactic well.
The drivers were a little slow to understand.
So lets move on.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2014:04:04:21:53:39 by Bond.

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