Williams F1

don't know if it was presented here (recent Claire interview)
[formularapida.net]

Quote:

Claire
“I think we’re starting to see the results of some of that work that
we’ve done but it is a journey for us, this is going to take us a long
time to get ourselves back into the midfield and I suppose we just keep
asking for patience and for people not to expect that suddenly the light
switch will come on and we will suddenly find ourselves back fighting
for P4 and P5, particularly when you look at the competition out there
at the moment.

Pat Fry is joining Renault for 2020. Have to say I am disappointed he isn’t joining us, he seemed to bring stability and direction at McLaren prior to James Key. Will be interesting how him and d e Beer do together, will most likely just show us more what a disaster for the head Paddy was.

Ad what a disaster the Williams team is, as it has destroyed a lot of top personnal.

Didn't know about Fry.Clearly a big chance is lost as the rumors was he's going to be joining Williams.

But DeBeer's performance is the thing I'm looking forward.
Would be good to know how him and specially Paddy would work in another team after their Williams time.

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Who has Williams destroyed? Sam Micheal was a nobody before and has not had much success after Williams either. Coughlan and Symonds both were involved in major scandals before being hired by Williams - and that was the main reason they were hired by Williams and not by other teams.

And in Lowe's case, I wouldn't exclude that he is the main culprit of his own career ending disaster at Williams.

Quote:

And in Lowe's case, I wouldn't exclude that he is the main culprit of his own career ending disaster at Williams.

Who knows. Almost everything I read suggests there were big problems with the tunnel before the Lowe/De Beer project - both Wurz and Symonds can testify to this . . . and it continued because the Coughlan low downforce project didn't really trouble it. If you were following the job vacancies, almost the entire tunnel team was replaced.

Quote:

Coughlan and Symonds both were involved in major scandals before being hired by Williams - and that was the main reason they were hired by Williams and not by other teams.

That hardly means they weren't excellent at their jobs, with many years in championship winning teams. Good people last 5 minutes at Williams because the management sucks.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/11/2019 10:17 by Gunk.

Quote:

Gunk

Quote:

And in Lowe's case, I wouldn't exclude that he is the main culprit of his own career ending disaster at Williams.

Who knows. Almost everything I read suggests there were big problems with the tunnel before the Lowe/De Beer project - both Wurz and Symonds can testify to this . . . and it continued because the Coughlan low downforce project didn't really trouble it. If you were following the job vacancies, almost the entire tunnel team was replaced.

Quote:

Coughlan and Symonds both were involved in major scandals before being hired by Williams - and that was the main reason they were hired by Williams and not by other teams.

That hardly means they weren't excellent at their jobs, with many years in championship winning teams. Good people last 5 minutes at Williams because the management sucks.

It could be there were problems with the tunnel of course. But I would take declarations with a pinch of salt - Lowe himself said that correlation was very good back in 2017. We will never know for sure, but my impression is that Lowe just never managed to fully control and coordinate the technical team - if this is due to his own fault, by the team resisting his ideas or a combination of both it is impossible to tell from the outside. But when a team using the same engine for the 5th consecutive year makes mistakes on the cooling system (as happened in 2018) I think it can only be due to lack of coordination - Lowe’s main task.

As for Coughlan and Symonds, yes, they were very good. And they didn’t last 5 minutes - both were with the team for multiple seasons and in Symonds’ case these were very successful seasons. My point is that their careers were over well before they joined Williams.

If you look at recent years Williams has been more of a revival place for some guys, except Lowe.

Whatever were the results or whoever was responsible, you can't say Paddy is anywhere near mediocre director.No way.you can't be a mediocre TD and last so long time in Mclaren and specially in Mercedes.If he was that bad, that some claim here, he was fired by Mercedes in a couple of months time.

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I can't understand why we haven't gone for the FI technical team last year, on a points per £ they must be up with the best. Do we have a technical director? Just feel like we lost a lot of people in 2018 who seemed to get sacrificed to cover for Paddy and then when we finally binned Paddy we've now got a much reduced leadership team at all positions.

Quote:

As for Coughlan and Symonds . . . My point is that their careers were over well before they joined Williams.

So you agree that SFW, considerably older than both, should be pensioned off with immediate effect?

))



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/11/2019 03:41 by Gunk.

Quote:

Gunk
Who knows. Almost everything I read suggests there were big problems with the tunnel before the Lowe/De Beer project - both Wurz and Symonds can testify to this . . . and it continued because the Coughlan low downforce project didn't really trouble it. If you were following the job vacancies, almost the entire tunnel team was replaced.

This is great stuff.

Wind tunnel correlation to the track was a problem for as long as I can remember.
In the team, it was continuously stated that correlation problems were detected and being solved.
The main problem is... way back then when our chief aerodynamicist, who had a design direction plotted and is a guru BTW, left for new pastures... and he was qualified to oversee problem detection and applied the solution in his department. The aero changes to the racecar worked for a while with other performance advantages Williams enjoyed, but it all ended soon enough with Renault leaving.
BMW era should have yielded more for Williams with such power advantage and a competitive pair of racers, but again they fell short in ultimate all-around performance to dominate with such a power advantage.
Would have spared Williams loads of trouble just simply keeping Newey in place... and that would have put them on a different trajectory. Maybe even surpass Ferrari as the all-time great team by now.
My two cents... importance of aero work was always neglected in Williams camp I suspect.
But it's all water under the bridge. Survival in F1 is the current name of the game here!

Oh god, let's stop it with the Newey @#$%&. That was 22 years ago. LET GO.

Interesting fact: Williams have finished in every position EXCEPT FIRST since Newey left.

N times in Nth place in WCC
0 times in 1st place
2 times in 2nd
5 times in 3rd
2 times in 4th
1 times in 5th
1 times in 7th
3 times in 8th
2 times in 9th
2 times in 10th

So....
7 years in 2nd or 3rd
4 years in 4th to 7th
7 years in 8th or worse.

Sounds about right. Williams is either good-but-not-great or shamefully slow.

Quote:

j-s
Interesting fact: Williams have finished in every position EXCEPT FIRST since Newey left.

Not really, they've never finished 11th or 12th even though we used to have more than 10 teams on the grid.

Newey's impact is exaggerated.He's a genius, ok but not always performed in last 22 yrs.

The problem about Williams imo is mostly about how they never invested in car manufacturing line like Mclaren.We had the chance to do so when we were winning titles but it never happened and thus we were left behind in budget by our rivals who are now mostly a car manufacture or being run by a billionaire.

Here's a list of Williams position in budget for a season (first column) and where they finished in the standings (2nd).

1999 : 5th - 5th
2000 : 5th - 3rd
2001 : 4th - 3rd
2002 : 6th - 2nd
2003 : 5th - 2nd
2004 : ?? - ??
2005 : 5th - 5th
2006 : 8th - 8th
2007 : 8th - 5th
2008 : 8th - 8th
2009 : 7th - 7th
2010 : 6th - 6th
2011 : 6th - 8th
2012 : 7th - 7th
2013 : 8th - 9th
2014 : 6th - 3rd
2015 : 5th - 3rd
2016 : 6th - 5th
2017 : 6th - 5th
2018 : 7th - 10th

From this list I think we can take a few results.
1st, we were left behind in budget side.
2nd, the team has done a better job than the available budget (Avg 5.5 in position with 6.3 for budget)

I don't see how a Newey's presence could change the results of a big missed opportunity in mid 90s.

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I disagree that Neweys impact is exaggerated. I think he knows his game and more importantly he knows the processes to put in place and has moved with modern times.... I think Williams would never have got in the mess it did if we had him today . I actually feel we haven't designed a car with excellent aero in terms of not only drag but downforce levels for years now.. Im going back as far as even Bmw days and maybe before, where I don't think the cars were ever that great in aero.... engine power advantages or rule changes advantages are the only time we have done anything only to find the pack catches up... I think aero is the one main area where Williams have never excelled and has been a major problem for us for years and years.. Our cars always seem flawed in their concepts

Well about Newey, I don't think he was around by this time if he signed a deal with Williams.Great technical directors need money to perform...big money to call it.He could stay and even in BMW era there was nothing different we were still spending near 60% of our direct rivals.No complain, they were selling cars so there was no chance tbh.He could stay a bit longer but soon frustration could step in and push him away from the team or even F1.

About the failure with aero, surely we are in a big mess atm but you can't ignore alot of good cars being built since Newey left.2001 and 2003 cars were aerodynamically very strong.Mostly let down by the engine failures to win more races.2007 car was a good one too with an underpowered engine or to call it 2009 we were one of very few teams to go for the clever design of diffuser.2012 was a podium contender too before wrong serie of updates and 2014, you had 3 other Mercedes powered teams.Comparing to them, Williams gained more time and out developed them.

To ignore the fact that we simply don't have the power financially to fight with those who were once our rivals, to ignore the fact that we have a team with facilities of a top team but run with a backmarker budget and to ignore how many times the aero department came with good designs and point one finger only to Newey, is simplifying the matter imo.

And btw, Newey's ideas in Mclaren started with their 2000 concept, since his departure they failed to win a title with an unlimited budget.MP4-18 was one of the most expensive mistakes in modern era, only to be covered with Mclaren huge budget...You see? Maybe we didn't miss that much in next 12 yrs since he left our team.

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Quote:

CLOVERLEAF 888
I disagree that Neweys impact is exaggerated. I think he knows his game and more importantly he knows the processes to put in place and has moved with modern times.... I think Williams would never have got in the mess it did if we had him today . I actually feel we haven't designed a car with excellent aero in terms of not only drag but downforce levels for years now.. Im going back as far as even Bmw days and maybe before, where I don't think the cars were ever that great in aero.... engine power advantages or rule changes advantages are the only time we have done anything only to find the pack catches up... I think aero is the one main area where Williams have never excelled and has been a major problem for us for years and years.. Our cars always seem flawed in their concepts

Agreed

Even Newey once designed his first car and Newey also has had his fair share of lemons produced.

It's all about finding the next Newey. Not about reminiscing what once was.

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Quote:

AlanJones
Even Newey once designed his first car and Newey also has had his fair share of lemons produced.
It's all about finding the next Newey. Not about reminiscing what once was.

Well... I agree.. but the team have the lowest possible potential to hire a world-class aerodynamicist - financial and prospect wise.
On the other hand, they have a prospect to grow 1 or 2 from their staff... but that is all down to a watertight contract and bringing up the best in people. The latter might not be Williams' strong suit.
But still it might become... eventually! If it doesn't happen too late for the team...