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Re: The all New FW42
atheonr 16 March, 2019 13:55
We kicked Pat Symonds and Jason Somerville just because we lost development battle against Force India in 2016 and finished 5th but they left the team with the 4th fastest car(FW40) and now here we are dealing with those ''fundamental issues'' for 2 years.

Re: The all New FW42
Stu69 16 March, 2019 14:10
Quote:
Ozzy Osbone
Maybe Bernie will buy it? At least he would kick some ass, even at his age. Brundle was saying that the facilities are second to none. WTF is going on?
Maybe SFW needs to look at past mistakes and offer Newey the shares he should have given him back then.

It’s a sad state Ozzy! Newey wouldn’t come with current ownership and board. Why would anyone?

Re: The all New FW42
Francesc 16 March, 2019 14:13
We have to become a Mercedes b team, that's the only way to get out of this hole.

B teams Haas, Alfa Romeo and Racing Point all are beating Renault!

Re: The all New FW42
ihme 16 March, 2019 14:48
Quote:
Stu69
Quote:
Ozzy Osbone
Maybe Bernie will buy it? At least he would kick some ass, even at his age. Brundle was saying that the facilities are second to none. WTF is going on?
Maybe SFW needs to look at past mistakes and offer Newey the shares he should have given him back then.

It’s a sad state Ozzy! Newey wouldn’t come with current ownership and board. Why would anyone?

No proper people will come to us if we wont change the top structure. Frank has to completely let it go - he is too old now and the times have changed immensely, Claire has to step down from the DTP position and be only in change of getting new sponsorships and we need to throw some serious money for a proper TP & TD. THEN we can concentrate on getting new key staff. Just look at this:

OPEN POSITIONS
Aerodynamicist / Graduate Aerodynamicist
Senior Aerodynamic Designer / Aerodynamic Designer
Aerodynamic Facilities R&D Engineer
Aerodynamic Software Engineer
Aerodynamic Electronic System Engineer
Senior Aerodynamicist

No wonder we are f*****. All the best people we had went to other teams/series. I wonder when will Claire finally realize that the current ways are killing her team.

Re: The all New FW42
Gunk 16 March, 2019 14:54
It seems to me far more a problem of systems and operations than people. They don't appear to be able to validate anything in-house.

This would appear to me to be an opportunity to downsize - at least until after the restructuring. Buy in proven tech and use outside facilities - Cologne for example. Hiring and firing won't change anything. Fundamental flaws are produced by fundamentally flawed systems.

Getting it wrong again has proved you can't do 'operation recovery' and design a car at the same time, with all the bugs in place. In any case, I don't think Paddy was the right person. It is rocket science. I would give the analysis to someone like Gillan - basically a professor - who worked in a very academic way.

There is no way we can afford a third season of funny data and numbers so we need help. I think the obvious person to call is Toto. Besides having all the resources, he knows the problems at Williams at first hand. There's a political cost for Claire, but I believe it's the only way to survive. Well, semi-independently.

Re: The all New FW42
Gunk 16 March, 2019 15:10
Quote:
Francesc

B teams Haas, Alfa Romeo and Racing Point all are beating Renault!

As are Ferrari, Mercedes and Red Bull, with their permanent test teams. Yesterday must have been a real downer for Renault. But indeed, the dice is very loaded, it can't be ignored.

Maybe we should talk to Renault about co-operation too?

Re: The all New FW42
Damon96 16 March, 2019 15:28
Quote:
Gunk
Quote:
Francesc

B teams Haas, Alfa Romeo and Racing Point all are beating Renault!

As are Ferrari, Mercedes and Red Bull, with their permanent test teams. Yesterday must have been a real downer for Renault. But indeed, the dice is very loaded, it can't be ignored.

Maybe we should talk to Renault about co-operation too?

I suspect Renault don’t have the money. We say we have a fundamental issue with structure but we were still competitive in 2017. Something has happened internally to pull it all apart. There aren’t many tech director positions in F1, we’re still an attractive option to someone who wanted to prove themselves as no other TD positions will appear probably for a few years but it’d take up to 6 months just to get them in. Those that could have been brought in, even as a consultant all now seem to be working for F1 owners.

Re: The all New FW42
Gunk 16 March, 2019 15:34
Quote:
atheonr
We kicked Pat Symonds and Jason Somerville just because we lost development battle against Force India in 2016 and finished 5th but they left the team with the 4th fastest car(FW40) and now here we are dealing with those ''fundamental issues'' for 2 years.

According to Alex Wurz, the correlation issues resurfaced in 2016. It was also the year they stupidly fired Massa early and he moped around for most of the year. Ten or more races without a single point? Not a great year but again you can't put it all on Pat any more than you can Paddy.

Re: The all New FW42
ihme 16 March, 2019 15:37
The proper people at the top would immediately start making the difference. Just imagine if we would get someone like Toto and Binotto. The minute they would start working here they would know what to change and who to hire.

We should have fired Paddy at the spot in the beginning of 2018, keep De Beer (because Paddy probably wanted to place all the blame on him) scrap that year completely, use the SMP/whatever money for the hiring of some good Fomrula E/WEC TD and TP and go from there. Sure, the 2019 would have probably been horrible too but we would have all the right people in the right places already.

I dont believe we are capable of making a good enough aerodynamic designs for fighting with the lower midfield anymore with the people that remained in the team. It was and probably still is a horrible exodus of our best staff and we are left without the right people to do the required job.

Ffs, we've got an awesome facility and the wind tunnel and we are making such aerodynamically horribile cars with the fundamental issues plaguing them. This shouldnt be possible.

Or just become a full Merc b-team. A for one am seeing only the benefits. Can anyone see Rexona and others staying with us after another year like 2018 (or even worse??). There will be no more Stroll damage money next year too. F*** the pride if the team is gonna die because of it.

Re: The all New FW42
rpralon 16 March, 2019 15:59
This car looks even worse than the one in 2018. Anyway it looks like it will be another bad year.

Re: The all New FW42
j-s 16 March, 2019 16:55
There is no magic bullet. A LOT of change is obviously needed, and that takes time. And money. And a good plan. And top people and drivers. I don't think they'll pull it off anytime soon. This will be a long slump. Years of irrelevance. 2021 at the earliest ,if at all.

Williams may have fixed one flaw and stumbled on an even bigger one. This is a perfect indication that the team are completely lost when it comes to designing a car. So they might fix this car and then still have dozens of issues to solve. It'll take years.

I am in awe of the situation. I've lost a lot of respect for Williams. Evidently the worse operation in f1.

Re: The all New FW42
phatjack 16 March, 2019 17:21
Quote:
Francesc
We have to become a Mercedes b team, that's the only way to get out of this hole.
B teams Haas, Alfa Romeo and Racing Point all are beating Renault!

That makes sense and it would put Williams in a better position to attract bigger and better future sponsors and possibly a new engine manufacturer like Honda.

It really is a no brainier, but I can appreciate Claire looking to protect a legacy.

Though at the end of the day, what have you done lately is all that counts.

Re: The all New FW42
ihme 16 March, 2019 17:40
There will be no Williams without sponsors. ROKiT must be furious right now because it looks like it could be an even worse year than 2018.

If this car wont be fixed come Barcelona then I'm positive we will hear the first rumors about a closer partnership with Mercedes later this season because this really is a no-brainer and I really dont see any other option for Claire plus it would help so much with retaining the current sponsors and finding some new ones. We could be fighting for P4 in the WCC right now had we bit the bullet on this sooner for crying out loud. There is no real reason except pride not to become the b-team of the most dominant team of the last 5 years. The TP of Mercedes knows our team inside out and their awesome junior drives for us!

What the hell are we waiting for?

Re: The all New FW42
Gunk 16 March, 2019 18:03
Quote:
j-s
This will be a long slump. Years of irrelevance. 2021 at the earliest ,if at all.

It doesn't have to be. It just needs the board to accept drastic change. As already noted by ihme, Haas can pitch up from nowhere with almost no people, build a perfectly respectable car and finish 8th in their first season. This option is open to anyone.

Sure one understands and admires Claire when she talks about her legacy and F1 . . . she has this speech about 'F1 is all we talk about at the dinner table and Williams will be here for generations of little Williamses'.

Except that it won't. F1 is itself a dinosaur. The advent of electric cars will change a lot. Technology moves so fast these days. Look how fast the digital revolution in cameras wiped out film and Kodak. In hindsight it's like the blink of an eye.

Re: The all New FW42
ihme 16 March, 2019 18:14
"To change something so fundamental will take months of development, work in the simulator and designers working out how to do it."

"We will probably still be at the back of the grid, but with the chance to fight rather than like it is at the moment."

I'm so angry and disappointed right now sad smiley

Re: The all New FW42
phatjack 16 March, 2019 18:35
When i get angry, a Sobieski and a Marlboro calms my nerves.

Re: The all New FW42
Francesc 16 March, 2019 19:07
I'm just sad right now, so much that today I've decided to skip my daily workout.

Re: The all New FW42
Mehryar 16 March, 2019 19:58
Over reaction, just like days of seeing an exciting mirror design to think it will make the car go quick, or pinning hopes to the words of "Mr.Tell-it-like-it-is" who was pointing out that we won't be where people expect us to be, thus we are not last.

Now...it's a rush to become a B-team! BS!

I have nothing against taking gearbox from Merc, it's logical with 2021 rules in mind but other things? Absolutely not!
2014, it was only 5 years ago and regardless of how much that Mercedes engine helped us, the thing that was the real bright point of our team was its development rate...We beat everybody else (Mercedes too) in development race with our aero and mechancial updates.Just compare our first GP quali/race pace with where we are in AbuZabi.

So this team, with its current size, current philosophy of making parts, current financial state, can do the job and it can do it brilliantly...for 100%! Those guys inside should stop @#$%& it up and do their job correctly, whether its the management side, TD, design team or whatever...why should we delete the question to get rid of those answers?

If you need another proof that not being a B-team can still make it these days, just checkout where Mclaren is.Whether they can keep it up or not, it makes no difference, but it proves you don't need to be a B-team to be in Q-3 and beat Renault or STR.



http://img150.imageshack.us/img150/1095/mehryarsigyo7.gif

Re: The all New FW42
Mikef1 16 March, 2019 20:22
Quote:
Mehryar
Over reaction, just like days of seeing an exciting mirror design to think it will make the car go quick, or pinning hopes to the words of "Mr.Tell-it-like-it-is" who was pointing out that we won't be where people expect us to be, thus we are not last.
Now...it's a rush to become a B-team! BS!

I have nothing against taking gearbox from Merc, it's logical with 2021 rules in mind but other things? Absolutely not!
2014, it was only 5 years ago and regardless of how much that Mercedes engine helped us, the thing that was the real bright point of our team was its development rate...We beat everybody else (Mercedes too) in development race with our aero and mechancial updates.Just compare our first GP quali/race pace with where we are in AbuZabi.

So this team, with its current size, current philosophy of making parts, current financial state, can do the job and it can do it brilliantly...for 100%! Those guys inside should stop @#$%& it up and do their job correctly, whether its the management side, TD, design team or whatever...why should we delete the question to get rid of those answers?

If you need another proof that not being a B-team can still make it these days, just checkout where Mclaren is.Whether they can keep it up or not, it makes no difference, but it proves you don't need to be a B-team to be in Q-3 and beat Renault or STR.

How large is McLarens budget? It is interesting how much opinions can converge about using proven parts. The 2014 car was a simpler beast than the 2019 monstrosities. So instead of spreading themselves so thin they can invest more into actually understanding this new era of aero

Re: The all New FW42
ihme 16 March, 2019 20:25
How can we compare McLaren with Williams? They have more money, they hired James Key as their TD, they hired Andreas Seidl as their managing director, they have Peter Prodromou, they didnt have such fundamental issues as us... Their have their @#$%& together.

Now compare this to Williams - no real TD, Claire as a DTP, no known quality aero guy, massive key staff exodus, 600+ people in the factory and still we missed almost the whole week of testing, we dont have spare parts and we are having another fundamental issue with a car 2nd year in a row that will take months to fix if not more. We should buy everything we can from Mercedes and concentrate fully on the aero instead of trying to do eveything in house because we are in deep s*** since 2018, we coudnt fix management issues since then. I cant imaging how much quicker will the other teams be next year if we will walk in circles another season?

If you are McLaren of course you dont need to be a b-team. How can we cope with s*** like that? If 2019 will be another worst year in Williams' history what will be the perspectives for 2020? Will Rexona stay? Acronis?

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