Latest news:

2019 Mexican Grand Prix Countdown

Days
Hours
Minutes
Seconds

Current Page: 47 of 51
Re: The all New FW42
Andrew Hooper 16 September, 2019 13:34
And high downforce Singapore is not going to be a great place for Williams.

Re: The all New FW42
IanSmithISA 16 September, 2019 13:50
Good morning,

Quote:
GPL
....They should have had enough time to construct the new parts.

I have been thinking about and trying to make sense of the recent Interim Report and one thing that is very clear in my mind is that senior management may very well be influencing the production schedule for upgrade parts for financial reasons.

Obviously there is always a threshold, for every team, where the performance advantage outweighs the financial cost of producing a new component. If you are awash with spare cash you can take a small improvement, if money is very tight and I mean tight to the point of having to borrow to make that new component and end up in debt at the end of the year then that improvement is going to have to be big.

My current ill-informed guesstimate is that Williams as a group seem to be heading for spending between 10 million and 14 million more than they will have received in revenue this year, unless they have a card up their sleeve.

In Williams' case there is also a suggestion that significant changes may need to be made in many areas of the car. This may decrease the useful life of any new component designed as an upgrade to the current one but designed to work with a soon to be replaced other part of the car.

We are also getting towards the end of the season so any new part may only be useful for the remaining 7 races of this season and 2019 car, the 2020 car being significantly different.

Bye

Ian

Re: The all New FW42
GPL 16 September, 2019 16:23
Hi.

Yes you could well be right.

Claire has said a month back that the next upgrade was ready for the 42 just needed to be produced,
now she is saying most of the new parts coming online are testing for next years car???

So yea no cash to waste on this dog.

Re: The all New FW42
Greg_OR 16 September, 2019 23:17
Quote:
IanSmithISA
[...]
We are also getting towards the end of the season so any new part may only be useful for the remaining 7 races of this season and 2019 car, the 2020 car being significantly different.

Bye

Ian
Thanks Ian, but as far as I know there will be no rule changes, so 2020 car will be identical, so I wonder if it make any difference (also financially) if they spend cash sooner or later, as total of money spent will be the same.
My opinion still is that this car is not good platform to work on, but team stated that it has no general issues and can be developed, there were no signs that team will do anything from scratch, so I assume that FW43 will be evolution of current car.
So for me the only reason to not making updates now is that the engineers at factory have no clue what to do to improve it.

Re: The all New FW42
IanSmithISA 17 September, 2019 05:03
Good morning,

[/quote]...so 2020 car will be identical, so I wonder if it make any difference (also financially) if they spend cash sooner or later, as total of money spent will be the same.[/quote]

Hopefully the 2020 car will be a long way from identical or identical to the car as it is now. :-)

It is clear that the 4th-9th place teams all have a significant advantage over Williams, the sort of advantage that in the past represented more than just the latest version of the front wing, rear wing etc.

When you consider the issues that Force India/Racing point have had which left them at the back of the main field but still without an actual gap I find it hard to believe that the current car needs just a simple tweak that they haven't yet worked out. :-)

So I see two options for 2020;

1) Accept that Paddy Lowe's design direction was too complicated for Williams or just wrong, I as an outsider will never know, but we do know that the car is still struggling after 1 and half full seasons.

So go back to a simpler design, one that has no chance of winning races but may be able to compete for minor points.

In this case there is no point in adding new parts to this year's car.

2) Be more focused and write 2020 off, continue with the current design, accept that this will mean last place and throw all resources at the 2021 car. If you are going to do this, then there will be no upgrades of the 2019 unless something useful is discovered by accident.

Clearly this is not something that anyone would want to say publicly.

Unless Williams really believe that the 2019 car is really brilliant and the flaws are just about to be fixed I don't see the logic in developing it for just 2020. The rumoured numbers suggest that finishing 7th in the championship would be worth an extra $10 million, less for 8th or 9th.

Can the extra speed be found for significantly less than that without impacting the development of the 2021 car? I suspect not.

Obviously Williams have had a view on their finances for a lot longer that us so decisions may have already been made a while ago.

I am resigned to Williams choosing option 2 and 2020 being another difficult season.

Bye

Ian

Re: The all New FW42
Mikef1 17 September, 2019 08:55
Quote:
GPL
Hi.
Yes you could well be right.

Claire has said a month back that the next upgrade was ready for the 42 just needed to be produced,
now she is saying most of the new parts coming online are testing for next years car???

So yea no cash to waste on this dog.

They're one and the same in my opinion, which could he wrong. Hit the chassis platform and aero principles are the same as next years cars so now it's all about maximising downforce. Any new update packages are directly related to what they are developing for next year. Anything they bolt onto the car will boost performance and give them a better understanding for next year.

Re: The all New FW42
GPL 17 September, 2019 10:14
Is it all about the down force or is it a poor sluggish chassis also?????
Just seeing what you think.
Plus loads of drag, is that from poor aero or suspension design, positioning or combination of both???
It is such a poor car that has no real nasty surprises unlike the 41, but it is so slow and numb with
no turn of pace a tall

I drove the Audi R8 and then a Ferrari on a track day few weeks ago it was like chalk and cheese
the Audi was so unresponsive compared to the Ferrari made me think of the 42 compared to the rest of the field.
Both super cars but the Audi was numb and the Ferrari very very much alive WOW.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 17/09/2019 12:27 by GPL.

Re: The all New FW42
Mikef1 17 September, 2019 10:41
Quote:
GPL
Is it all about the down force or is it a poor sluggish chassis also?????
Just seeing what you think.
Plus loads of drag, is that from poor aero or suspension design, positioning or combination of both???
It is such a poor car that has no real nasty surprises like the 41, but it is so slow and numb with
no turn of pace a tall

I drove the Audi R8 and then a Ferrari on a track day few weeks ago it was like chalk and cheese
the Audi was so unresponsive compared to the Ferrari made me think of the 42 compared to the rest of the field.
Both super cars but the Audi was numb and the Ferrari very very much alive WOW.

That's because the Audi r8 is awd meaning you get a more controlled drive so even a faster lap would feel less satisfying compared to a lively ferrari. The Audi r8 is predictable and understeer where the ferrari has a rear end you need to control which is why it feels more satisfying to nail a lap.

Drag is pure aerodynamics. There are a lot of components on the car that visually look bulky and unrefined.

The team are quite confident that its aero where the most time is being lost, however top teams will have the lightest cars, meaning favourable cog. Better suspension and so on. I think you could say with some confidence that William's is lacking in every area but power. Bad aero is just the biggest contributor to the deficit.

Re: The all New FW42
Greg_OR 17 September, 2019 11:59
Quote:
Mikef1
The team are quite confident that its aero where the most time is being lost, however top teams will have the lightest cars, meaning favourable cog. Better suspension and so on. I think you could say with some confidence that William's is lacking in every area but power. Bad aero is just the biggest contributor to the deficit.
I would doubt even power, as there could be cooling issues that prevent using PU in the whole possible range. There was improvement on high downforce Hungaroring, so we should see the same in Singapore but this car also suffered in low speed corners due to chassis, but then some major tweak was done in front suspension so I'm looking for the result.

Re: The all New FW42
GPL 17 September, 2019 12:30
Cheers guys.

Re: The all New FW42
j-s 18 September, 2019 05:57
You make a good point Ian. I suspect that Williams see this car as improve-able simply because they can't afford to replace it. No cash.

Re: The all New FW42
boro1986willliamsf1 18 September, 2019 07:32
Quote:
j-s
You make a good point Ian. I suspect that Williams see this car as improve-able simply because they can't afford to replace it. No cash.
There is a major rule change in 2021 only the big teams can afford two teams working on different cars as been said many times this years car unless major fault will be the bases for next years car with most of the staff concentrating on 2021 car makes sense to me



100% Williams
WILL SUPPORT WILLIAMS AS LONG AS THEY HAVE A TEAM

Re: The all New FW42
Myvatn 18 September, 2019 13:13
[quote IanSmithISA]Good morning,

[/quote]...so 2020 car will be identical, so I wonder if it make any difference (also financially) if they spend cash sooner or later, as total of money spent will be the same.[/quote]

Hopefully the 2020 car will be a long way from identical or identical to the car as it is now. :-)

It is clear that the 4th-9th place teams all have a significant advantage over Williams, the sort of advantage that in the past represented more than just the latest version of the front wing, rear wing etc.

When you consider the issues that Force India/Racing point have had which left them at the back of the main field but still without an actual gap I find it hard to believe that the current car needs just a simple tweak that they haven't yet worked out. :-)

So I see two options for 2020;

1) Accept that Paddy Lowe's design direction was too complicated for Williams or just wrong, I as an outsider will never know, but we do know that the car is still struggling after 1 and half full seasons.

So go back to a simpler design, one that has no chance of winning races but may be able to compete for minor points.

In this case there is no point in adding new parts to this year's car.

2) Be more focused and write 2020 off, continue with the current design, accept that this will mean last place and throw all resources at the 2021 car. If you are going to do this, then there will be no upgrades of the 2019 unless something useful is discovered by accident.

Clearly this is not something that anyone would want to say publicly.

Unless Williams really believe that the 2019 car is really brilliant and the flaws are just about to be fixed I don't see the logic in developing it for just 2020. The rumoured numbers suggest that finishing 7th in the championship would be worth an extra $10 million, less for 8th or 9th.

Can the extra speed be found for significantly less than that without impacting the development of the 2021 car? I suspect not.

Obviously Williams have had a view on their finances for a lot longer that us so decisions may have already been made a while ago.

I am resigned to Williams choosing option 2 and 2020 being another difficult season.

Bye

Ian[/quote]
I think that the difference between competing in the midfield / getting 7th/8th place in the championship and being dead last like Williams this year is not just in the prize money. Of course that is the most immediate and measurable factor, but having no improvements for a third consecutive season would hurt the image of the team even more, and I think it bears some consequences:

1) it would be more difficult to attract new sponsors (or at least, good sponsorship deals), which seems a vital necessity at the moment
2) it would make attracting good personnel / drivers and start a real recovery once the rule change allows it more difficult.

Point 2 is particularly critical in my opinion, as Williams relies heavily on pay drivers, and it must stay attractive for them. Williams already lost support from Stroll and Sirotkin's backers due to their woeful performances in the last couple of seasons. Right now Latifi seems happy to waste his money on a drive with Williams next year, whatever level of competitiveness they are able to reach, but what if a more competitive team (Haas? Alfa?) comes knocking to his door?

Of course these are all much more aleatory factors than the prize money, but I would not take it for granted that Williams will choose to write off 2020, not yet at least.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 18/09/2019 17:12 by Myvatn.

Re: The all New FW42
Mr Brooksy 20 September, 2019 02:35
Any signs of the supposed aero upgrade that was signed off on a bit over a month ago?

Re: The all New FW42
GPL 20 September, 2019 06:56
No nothing on the web that i can find.
I really do think Claire should step down and get a person in who can get things moving.

Re: The all New FW42
Mikef1 20 September, 2019 07:15
Quote:
GPL
No nothing on the web that i can find.
I really do think Claire should step down and get a person in who can get things moving.

Why Claire? She brings a lot of money to the team. She's done well in ensuring there are as many high value stickers on those cars as possible. It's the engineering department who need a kick up the @#$%& and they've already had a shake up this season. Let's see what they produce next year.

Re: The all New FW42
GPL 20 September, 2019 08:17
Then whoever is in charge of building the new parts needs sorting out.

What i am saying is the parts are not getting onto the car quick enough.

No use saying we have signed these new upgrades off ages ago and not
doing anymore about it.

From when she told us the new bits had already been approved and signed off
5 weeks ago now, that should of been enough time for them to be on the cars at this race Mike.

Not good enough in my book.

Re: The all New FW42
Greg_OR 20 September, 2019 08:33
Quote:
Mikef1
Quote:
GPL
No nothing on the web that i can find.
I really do think Claire should step down and get a person in who can get things moving.

Why Claire? She brings a lot of money to the team. She's done well in ensuring there are as many high value stickers on those cars as possible. It's the engineering department who need a kick up the @#$%& and they've already had a shake up this season. Let's see what they produce next year.
No offense to Claire but isn't it the marketing department responsible for all those stickers? Many thinks she is brilliant on this field and belongs there, but as team principal (deputy or not) she is also responsible for who and what are they doing in the engineering department. TD missing for so long isn't helping the situation either and only she can hire one.

Re: The all New FW42
Mikef1 20 September, 2019 08:43
Quote:
Greg_OR
Quote:
Mikef1
Quote:
GPL
No nothing on the web that i can find.
I really do think Claire should step down and get a person in who can get things moving.

Why Claire? She brings a lot of money to the team. She's done well in ensuring there are as many high value stickers on those cars as possible. It's the engineering department who need a kick up the @#$%& and they've already had a shake up this season. Let's see what they produce next year.
No offense to Claire but isn't it the marketing department responsible for all those stickers? Many thinks she is brilliant on this field and belongs there, but as team principal (deputy or not) she is also responsible for who and what are they doing in the engineering department. TD missing for so long isn't helping the situation either and only she can hire one.

But can you fault her decisions in that department either. Many here myself included hailed the arrival of Dirk De Beer and Paddy Lowe. The guy who designed the best bits of the ferrari and the guy who knew all Mercedes dirty little secrets. Great decisions. If McLaren had made that move, I fully believe they would have made it work.

The technical department at Williams is the problem, something only made seriously apparent in the last 2 years when the more complex bargeboard regulations and super small cooling solutions came in. Williams clearly cant do them. Is 2 years enough to turn that around for a team principle, how many people need sacking and recruiting? How much is needed to invest in software and hardware?

I dont think Claire has done the best job, but overall her biggest failure was not anticipating that her team simply couldn't hack the new regulations, and making changes ahead of time. Something you could possibly only ever see in hindsight. Now the slump, having to take 2 pay drivers to balance the books, gain seconds in performance when other teams are still finding tenths, and all the while the ship is sinking.

William's needs next years car to be quick enough to fight for points on merit.. It needs to earn some millions of price money to reinvest in the Tech department so the 2021 car can have the best possible start, from there with a budget cap, clean slate etc etc the team can hopefully recover.

Just playing devils advocate.

Re: The all New FW42
Greg_OR 20 September, 2019 09:09
Sure, everything you write Mike is true and logical, but boss is a boss and every single problem team has is her problem also.
Her role is harder every day and I don't think pay driver money can help to over come current situation. It also could be too late to count on budget cap or new prize money deal.
Haas for sale situation was revealed, so if 'team B' plan is not acceptable then why not to look for serious, long term investor for example.

Current Page: 47 of 51

Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.
We record all IP addresses on the Sportnetwork message boards which may be required by the authorities in case of defamatory or abusive comment. We seek to monitor the Message Boards at regular intervals. We do not associate Sportnetwork with any of the comments and do not take responsibility for any statements or opinions expressed on the Message Boards. If you have any cause for concern over any material posted here please let us know as soon as possible by e-mailing abuse@sportnetwork.net