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Re: The Silly Season 2019
IanSmithISA 06 July, 2019 07:20
Good morning,

Quote:
Ozzy Osbone
I also can't see a gearbox being worth a second a lap.......

At first glance neither can I, if you go back a few years and if the gearbox was costing a second a lap then the car was almost a championship winner.

Thinking about it a bit more i can beliive it, it is easy to see two problems

Williams may have slipped behind, they were one of the first with a Seamless Shift gearbox and money has been tight.

So it may be a combination of weight/lack of development and Merc gearboxes are designed with extensive access to engine design team, something that Williams don't have.

The trouble is that I find it very hard to find out how seamless shift works as nobody wants to say. :-(

So the idea that the Williams gearbox works but could interact better with the engine management when the shifts are about to take place makes sense to me.

The important point is that the gearbox is no longer a standalone unit that has no interaction with the engine.

As I understand it there are position sensors in various places in the gearbox that record the location of gears etc and as gears start to engage engine power is altered to ensure the most efficient gear change.

The Williams and Merc gearboxes could easily be giving the same position information, but maybe the Merc box is able to take more power without distorting a component than the Williams one?

Maybe the gears in the Merc gearbox can take a higher load with less tooth engagement than the Williams one?

It is also possible the Williams gearbox has not been updated enough to cope with the loads created by declaration through energy recovery rather than braking so places different loads on the engine affecting recharge.

So maybe Merc have got to point that they need to run a separate development program that caters for the characteristics of the Williams gearbox and aren't interested in continuing it?


Bye

Ian

Re: The Silly Season 2019
Anderis 06 July, 2019 09:29
Quote:
Andrew Hooper
I would have thought it would have made more sense to keep Mercedes in regard to the issues of integrating a new engine into their 2020 chassis. I would think that Williams with all their chassis issues that they would want to keep that engine factor constant going into 2020.
Funny thing is that Williams have often had a very good first season after an engine change. The last 4 engine changes all saw a better WCC positions in the first year with a new engine than in the last year with an old one.

Re: The Silly Season 2019
Francesc 06 July, 2019 11:07
Williams are stupid not to buy gearboxes from Mercedes for only to keep its pride "we're an independent team".

Re: The Silly Season 2019
phatjack 06 July, 2019 16:52
Quote:
IanSmithISA
Good morning,
Quote:
Ozzy Osbone
I also can't see a gearbox being worth a second a lap.......

At first glance neither can I, if you go back a few years and if the gearbox was costing a second a lap then the car was almost a championship winner.

Thinking about it a bit more i can beliive it, it is easy to see two problems

Williams may have slipped behind, they were one of the first with a Seamless Shift gearbox and money has been tight.

So it may be a combination of weight/lack of development and Merc gearboxes are designed with extensive access to engine design team, something that Williams don't have.

The trouble is that I find it very hard to find out how seamless shift works as nobody wants to say. :-(

So the idea that the Williams gearbox works but could interact better with the engine management when the shifts are about to take place makes sense to me.

The important point is that the gearbox is no longer a standalone unit that has no interaction with the engine.

As I understand it there are position sensors in various places in the gearbox that record the location of gears etc and as gears start to engage engine power is altered to ensure the most efficient gear change.

The Williams and Merc gearboxes could easily be giving the same position information, but maybe the Merc box is able to take more power without distorting a component than the Williams one?

Maybe the gears in the Merc gearbox can take a higher load with less tooth engagement than the Williams one?

It is also possible the Williams gearbox has not been updated enough to cope with the loads created by declaration through energy recovery rather than braking so places different loads on the engine affecting recharge.

So maybe Merc have got to point that they need to run a separate development program that caters for the characteristics of the Williams gearbox and aren't interested in continuing it?


Bye

Ian

I think you have a point. While surfing the internet awaiting to get a barber's shave and a make me look good again hair cut, I stumbled across this article that spoke about gearboxes and it's importance.

The article in a nutshell went on to say in a modern F1 car it takes between 30 - 50 milliseconds to perform a gear shift.

So if we assume conservatively speaking on average 50 gear shifts/lap

That's between 1.5 seconds to 2.5 seconds/lap. But I regress the independent team knows better than the engine manufacturer?

Re: The Silly Season 2019
boro1986willliamsf1 06 July, 2019 18:48
The gear box should be standard



100% Williams
WILL SUPPORT WILLIAMS AS LONG AS THEY HAVE A TEAM

Re: The Silly Season 2019
Craig atkin 06 July, 2019 19:50
Don’t they mean the weight of gearbox,I can remember reading that Mercedes and nearly all other teams use a different material that’s lightweight compared to Williams gearboxes

Re: The Silly Season 2019
Mehryar 06 July, 2019 20:51
Seamless gearbox could bring around 3tenths over normal ones used pre 2005.That's exactly what I remember when it was rumored that Toyota can give discount to Williams for its 2007 engines in trade of Seamless gearbox technology which could bring 0.3 a lap through a normal track like Barcelona.

So I don't think there's much sense in that 1 second a lap advantage unless it's about weight and packaging.Maybe in that case, the figures get there.



http://img150.imageshack.us/img150/1095/mehryarsigyo7.gif

Re: The Silly Season 2019
SydneyF1Fan 06 July, 2019 23:53
Quote:
phatjack
I think you have a point. While surfing the internet awaiting to get a barber's shave and a make me look good again hair cut, I stumbled across this article that spoke about gearboxes and it's importance.
The article in a nutshell went on to say in a modern F1 car it takes between 30 - 50 milliseconds to perform a gear shift.

So if we assume conservatively speaking on average 50 gear shifts/lap

That's between 1.5 seconds to 2.5 seconds/lap. But I regress the independent team knows better than the engine manufacturer?

That's not 1.5-2.5 seconds of lap time though, phat.

The car is still moving when you change gears, so the impact on lap time is only a small fraction of the time it takes to change gears.

Also, the variance in gear change time may relate to different gears, eg 50 ms from 1st-2nd, 30ms from 7th-8th.

While the Merc gearbox may be faster than Williams, I can't imagine it would be 1 second different. Also, manufacturing the gearbox and suspension should be a core engineering strength for Williams. If they can't do that, then they may as well pack up now and become the Haas B Team.



http://i807.photobucket.com/albums/yy358/SydneyF1Fan/SydneyF1FanSignatureWinner-v3.gif

Re: The Silly Season 2019
IanSmithISA 07 July, 2019 05:34
Good morning,

I agree that upshift performance wouldn't be most of the whole second, weight and weight distribution would also be a significant part of the time.

I would love to know and have no way of knowing how much effect the increased engine braking via the generator on the crankshaft has on gearbox design, especially if funds are tight for gearbox development for Williams but not Mercedes.

I can see how downshift performance where you have not only the engines natural resistance to being revved up but also the energy recovery resistance being an area where developments could have been made over the last few years.

I hope the Renault engine story is just silly season but again I can believe it.

When Paddy Lowe joined Williams I didn't see this, but Lowe's departure and talk of the loss of Mercedes engines begs the question, was Lowe supported by Mercedes in his move to Williams?

"When you go, feel free to take some notes and if needed you can call on 'fred' for the occasional bit of advice"

This sounds daft, but Toto probably still has some sympathy and support for Williams as well as a need for an improvement at Williams, after all powering the back marker is not a great marketing tool even if you are also winning.

If this were the case it would have been a shock to see just how fast Williams went backwards when Paddy joined and with Lowe's departure and William's rejection of Mercedes support this desire to help could easily have run out.

Williams seem to have convinced themselves that they can't win without a budget cap and may be willing to do anything until that imaginary day when the cap makes a difference.

The $175m (plus drivers, engines, marketing, travel costs) cap is looking likely for 2021-2025 and at that level it will take a long time, if ever, to equalise car performance.

Back onto my hobby horse of WAE, Williams can't abandon gearbox design and manufacture without it having a massive impact on WAE. Not just in terms of credibility but also in terms of people, resources and current state of the art know how

Bye


Ian

Re: The Silly Season 2019
phatjack 07 July, 2019 09:56
Quote:
SydneyF1Fan
Quote:
phatjack
I think you have a point. While surfing the internet awaiting to get a barber's shave and a make me look good again hair cut, I stumbled across this article that spoke about gearboxes and it's importance.
The article in a nutshell went on to say in a modern F1 car it takes between 30 - 50 milliseconds to perform a gear shift.

So if we assume conservatively speaking on average 50 gear shifts/lap

That's between 1.5 seconds to 2.5 seconds/lap. But I regress the independent team knows better than the engine manufacturer?

That's not 1.5-2.5 seconds of lap time though, phat.

The car is still moving when you change gears, so the impact on lap time is only a small fraction of the time it takes to change gears.

Also, the variance in gear change time may relate to different gears, eg 50 ms from 1st-2nd, 30ms from 7th-8th.

While the Merc gearbox may be faster than Williams, I can't imagine it would be 1 second different. Also, manufacturing the gearbox and suspension should be a core engineering strength for Williams. If they can't do that, then they may as well pack up now and become the Haas B Team.

Syd, correct and that's not what I was implying. Between a 30 miili second and 50 milli second gear shift time, the difference in shift time per lap is 1 second. which considering all other things being equal, will have a negative impact on the cars performance.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/07/2019 09:57 by phatjack.

Re: The Silly Season 2019
Ozzy Osbone 08 July, 2019 17:33
Well if we assume that every Merc change is 30ms and every Williams change is 50ms then we lose 1 sec roughly between disengaging and engaging gears. But that doesn't mean a second a lap lost. The car is still moving. But yes, it will be a negative. Plus I am sure that shift times vary up and down the gears. Logic would say that changing from 1st to 2nd should be quicker than 6th to 7th purely because there will me more going on in terms of drag and harvesting etc.

So the 30-50 gap may well vary within the Merc and Williams boxes. We can be sure that the Merc box is probably quicker but I also agree with the above that looking to the future we should keep that capability for projects outside of F1.

Re: The Silly Season 2019
tomazy 08 July, 2019 18:56
Were seamless gearboxes baned? As far as I know, Williams was the first F1 team to introduce one in like 2006 or something? This 1s a lap for a gearbox is another stat that somebody with no data made up. Were Williams gearboxses 1s slower in 2014 also? So would Williams be champions that year with a Mercedes box? FW42 has a lot of problems, but Gerabox is not the bigest one of them by a large margine.

Re: The Silly Season 2019
Mehryar 08 July, 2019 23:15
Quote:
tomazy
Were seamless gearboxes baned? As far as I know, Williams was the first F1 team to introduce one in like 2006 or something? This 1s a lap for a gearbox is another stat that somebody with no data made up. Were Williams gearboxses 1s slower in 2014 also? So would Williams be champions that year with a Mercedes box? FW42 has a lot of problems, but Gerabox is not the bigest one of them by a large margine.

+1

Getting use to it that someone throws something without any source and then others try to look for reasons behind it! lol



http://img150.imageshack.us/img150/1095/mehryarsigyo7.gif

Re: The Silly Season 2019
phatjack 08 July, 2019 23:36
Quote:
Ozzy Osbone
Well if we assume that every Merc change is 30ms and every Williams change is 50ms then we lose 1 sec roughly between disengaging and engaging gears. But that doesn't mean a second a lap lost. The car is still moving. But yes, it will be a negative. Plus I am sure that shift times vary up and down the gears. Logic would say that changing from 1st to 2nd should be quicker than 6th to 7th purely because there will me more going on in terms of drag and harvesting etc.
So the 30-50 gap may well vary within the Merc and Williams boxes. We can be sure that the Merc box is probably quicker but I also agree with the above that looking to the future we should keep that capability for projects outside of F1.

You're assuming Williams is achieving a gear shift change in 50 milliseconds. I certainly understand the difference between a works team and a customer team.

Re: The Silly Season 2019
M79 11 July, 2019 07:06
Quote:
Gunk
It really doesn't look like Gasly will make the breakthrough.

If Red Bull do decide to dump Gasly over the summer break, I'd kind of like to see them take a chance on Vandoorne for the remainder of the season. I really feel he's much better than McLaren made him look last year.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/07/2019 07:07 by M79.

Re: The Silly Season 2019
Gunk 31 July, 2019 15:45
Well, half season and . . . ’who’s hot and who’s not?’.

At least three drivers are looking likely to be without a drive at the end of the season: Kubica, Gasly and Grosjean.

Ocon could in theory take the place of any - but Ocon has delusions of grandeur and wants a top drive. Mercedes only chance of retaining Ocon is to put him in either Bottas or Perez seat . . . but neither look as if they would suit. Perez is rumoured to be going to Haas and Latifi, thought to be on the way to Williams, may just join his fellow Canadian at the Strollers.

And at Williams? Well, De Vries, now heading GP2, was sounded out last year but didn’t have the cash . . . this could change.

Hulk has seemed more certain of his position lately and talk of him going to RBR or Formula E have evaporated for the time being.

We shall see . . .

Drivers aside, I read somewhere that Mike O’Driscoll is not entirely safe at Williams - well, he has to justify a huge salary - and a certain Mr Boullier’s name has been mentioned.

Re: The Silly Season 2019
Mehryar 01 August, 2019 00:24
Any news on Pat Fry ?

On drivers' side, I think Mercedes will finally release Bottas and replace him with Ocon.



http://img150.imageshack.us/img150/1095/mehryarsigyo7.gif

Re: The Silly Season 2019
ihme 01 August, 2019 11:40
Well they certainly need to do something about their juniors getting seats only in the other teams and not their main one. Red Bull promoted Max, Ferrari Leclerc and only Merc is being reluctant to do the same. I think Merc's board is pushing Toto really hard about it this year.
Imho Toto should gamble on George and not Ocon.

Re: The Silly Season 2019
shriekback 01 August, 2019 23:37
Quote:
ihme
Imho Toto should gamble on George and not Ocon.

I, too, think George is really good. I don't think it would be good for him to be pitted against Hamilton at Mercedes at this early stage of his career, however. He may well have the natural ability to compete with that of the 5-time WDC, but I think he could use some more time without the additional pressure within his team, more intense media interest, a higher salary, and all the other things that would come with a seat in a race-winning car, while he refines his craft and just grows up some more. (That is not to say that I think he has displayed an immaturity, but just that he is still very young.)

For comparison's sake, I don't think anyone now denies the talent of the likes of Verstappen or LeClerc, but both might have been better off with a bit more time in their respective junior teams. Williams, of course, is no one's B-squad, but the pressure right now on its drivers to be faultless is about the same as it would be if it were.

Ocon may or may not be the equal of George in terms of talent, but he has a lot more experience and I would think he should get a shot at an open seat in the Merc before George.

Personally, I'm rooting for Bottas to have a better second-half, to give Hamilton a real challenge for the title, and to keep his seat. Then, in case Robert continues to struggle, Ocon might be available to take his place. Russell/Ocon, like Russell/Kubica, is a driver line-up I could really get behind.

Re: The Silly Season 2019
dot_com 02 August, 2019 01:33
Claire has been very outspoken recently, saying the GR is under contract to Williams for another two years. This could of course be just a bargaining chip, letting Mercedes know that they won’t give him up without substantial gain (I seem to remember her spinning the same line regarding Bottas). I really hope to see George stay with Williams - I think he does certainly deserve a better seat than he currently has, but if we can produce a good car I feel he is highly likely to put in some top performances. Russel/Ocon would be a fantastic line-up. Though Russel/Latifi is probably looking more likely for 2020.

Does anyone know if Kubica is on a one year deal? Perhaps he will transition into some other role within the team, like a sim driver, coach, ambassador type figure. I like Kubica a lot and respect all that he has done in F1, but his limitations in the car have certainly been apparent this year.

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