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The All New FW43
Discussion started by CLOVERLEAF 888 , 03 December, 2019 23:36
The All New FW43
CLOVERLEAF 888 03 December, 2019 23:36
Well the season is over and its now time to start looking forward to the FW43 and hopefully some progress.

We can start to hope again.
☺️

Re: The All New FW43
dot_com 04 December, 2019 01:36
Let’s all hope that the FW42 is the worst car that we ever make.

Re: The All New FW43
Andrew Hooper 04 December, 2019 08:23
You use the title All New FW43. It better be all new. New from the ground up. Nothing brought over from the FW42 because as you say it had too be the worst car ever made by Williams.

Re: The All New FW43
Mikef1 04 December, 2019 08:25
They said they wouldn't deviate too far from the FW42 base, meaning probably the same chassis and as they believe the car is a good platform, a focus on adding pure downforce. Realistically, the team would need to gain around 2.5s a lap or so when you factor in that other teams will make steps forward too. to have a decent car, and I dont believe they can do that.

The FW43 will likely be a faster but still not fast enough race car with just enough money saved to push properly for 2021. Simpler aero will play into the teams hands as it's only been since the incredibly complex stuff came in that they started seriously slipping.

I would expect another non points scorer with lack of development after Barceolna when the team starts to gear up for 2021. Happy to be proven wrong.

Re: The All New FW43
AlanJones 04 December, 2019 09:53
Quote:
Mikef1
They said they wouldn't deviate too far from the FW42 base, meaning probably the same chassis and as they believe the car is a good platform, a focus on adding pure downforce. Realistically, the team would need to gain around 2.5s a lap or so when you factor in that other teams will make steps forward too. to have a decent car, and I dont believe they can do that.
The FW43 will likely be a faster but still not fast enough race car with just enough money saved to push properly for 2021. Simpler aero will play into the teams hands as it's only been since the incredibly complex stuff came in that they started seriously slipping.

I would expect another non points scorer with lack of development after Barceolna when the team starts to gear up for 2021. Happy to be proven wrong.

I agree and I sincerely think they should just build the FW43 for the sake of them needing a new car before switching solely to the FW44 even before the European season kicks off.
I can't see any reason to why Williams should desperately seeking for a regular point scorer and burn money if reality just is that the base to build the FW43 upon is the FW42 which is simply not capable enough to gain the 2.5 seconds you've mentioned.
Yes, prize money is worth a lot. But it is never going to justify burning cash that could be used for the FW44, who will have to be build from the ground up.

2020 will see Williams being dead last once more. That's reality.




https://i.ibb.co/BPGnSFS/GRDAY1header-01.png

Re: The All New FW43
Mikef1 04 December, 2019 11:34
2021 is actually a reason to be cautiously optimistic. The cars are so damn simple. All of William's best cars in the last 10 years have been the simple ones. 2009, 2014 -2016. Nonsense like the over complicated bargeboards and coanda exhausts etc is what has ruined the party more often than not.

Re: The All New FW43
AlanJones 04 December, 2019 11:56
The rule change to the current V6 engines didn't do Williams harm. And ofcourse, the massive gap Mercedes had was one reason. But Williams left McLaren and Force India, both also with Mercedes power, looking like idiots meanwhile. So whilst everyone was telling Mercedes was the reason for a good performing Williams, I dare to tell Williams themselves have done a stellar job as well.
Hopefully 2021 will see us rise again.




https://i.ibb.co/BPGnSFS/GRDAY1header-01.png




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/12/2019 11:57 by AlanJones.

Re: The All New FW43
CLOVERLEAF 888 04 December, 2019 13:01
Quote:
dot_com
Let’s all hope that the FW42 is the worst car that we ever make.

I know this might sound a bit silly but was it the worst car we have made. ?? ..… I ask that because I was always under the impression, the previous car the Fw41 was pretty much undrivable and was very twitchy and corner balance seemed on the edge of disaster many times.... IS the Fw42 not a better base to build on as it didn't seem from the onboards t display those same traits ... ? Sure it was slower than the Fw41 but was the basis of the car and concept more concrete than the Fw41 ?

Re: The All New FW43
ihme 04 December, 2019 21:53
Quote:
CLOVERLEAF 888
Quote:
dot_com
Let’s all hope that the FW42 is the worst car that we ever make.

IS the Fw42 not a better base to build on

No it's utter c r a p and not a base worth to build upon - especially in 2020 when not only we wont be making needed gains during winter to fight for points but we will be switching efforts very early on for 2021.
We need to scrap 2020 asap and concentrate fully on 2021 because if even then we wont get the new car right then I don't know how we will get out of this insane mess.

Re: The All New FW43
Mr Brooksy 05 December, 2019 01:14
I get the thinking behind just showing up with an FW42b for 2020, but one thing that I'm concerned about that hasn't really been discussed, staff experience and confidence in the team.

Hear me out... The past 2 years we have seen more staff leave Williams than rats vacating a sinking ship. If we have another disaster like the past 2 years, how many of our quality staff will be poached by more cashed up teams? Or conversely, how many quality staff that will be required to move on from RBR, Mercedes and Ferrari (due to the cost cap) will want to join Williams who won't have put a competitive car on track for 3 years running?

I agree we need to keep some cash in reserve from next year's budget to throw at a revival for 2021, but being careful not to hurt our future staff prospects by throwing away another season.

Just a thought.

Re: The All New FW43
IanSmithISA 05 December, 2019 08:06
Good morning,

I am in a very pessimistic mood today and I fear that;

The 2020 car will be the current car with possibly just one set of upgrades at the start of the year
and rather than all funds being held back and splurged on the 2021 car, this too will based on the minimal possible development.

The reason is that if the article at [www.racefans.net] is correct then F1 is going to shift the Bernie bonuses to a pot based on championship success over the last 10 years. Possibly with a few points for Williams and McLaren for historical success.

As this is not a new idea I fear that it will become reality and this could pretty easily mean the end for Williams as it is currently formed as it is hard to see how they will able to afford to do much more then attend in 2020 and 2021 rather than compete. :-(

If as expected Williams lose £15m this year and as there is no indication that the 2020 budget is going to be larger than this year's then the same losses would be expected in 2020.

I suspect that the reallocation of bonus money along with the prize money for finishing 5th or 6th was part of the argument that has allowed for the current debt levels. If this were true then debt would not be a problem.

Without this being true it is hard to see who would want to lend Williams any money beyond evening out cash flow.

Under these conditions repayment of the existing loan along with a gradual reduction of the overdraft and revolving credit facility would seem likely and this would further reduce the R&D budget.

There has been talk of selling WAE but it is hard to see who would want it as it is so heavily entwined with WGPE.

Another option seems to be the sale of all of the spare land and the factory which would then be leased back. This would probably put Williams back to having no debt, but also with minimal security to offer for any future borrowing.

With Haas still apparently unhappy about Racing Point not being classed as new team and benefiting from prize money not available to Haas and Liberty being more open than Bernie, there doesn't seem to be a chance of a one off favour of about £40m to keep Williams as part of the show.

I suppose the possibility of Renault and Haas leaving and there being fewer teams to split the prize money between could help. But this would mean 3 cars from some teams possibly highlighting the gap between them and the rest and making F1 less attractive to the hosts.

So to me things look gloomy unless a new source of money is found.

Bye

Ian

Re: The All New FW43
AlanJones 05 December, 2019 14:30
Well there are rumors going on about Gazprom wanting to join F1. Perhaps Claire could poach them?




https://i.ibb.co/BPGnSFS/GRDAY1header-01.png

Re: The All New FW43
Mikef1 05 December, 2019 15:53
Quote:
IanSmithISA
Good morning,
I am in a very pessimistic mood today and I fear that;

The 2020 car will be the current car with possibly just one set of upgrades at the start of the year
and rather than all funds being held back and splurged on the 2021 car, this too will based on the minimal possible development.

The reason is that if the article at [www.racefans.net] is correct then F1 is going to shift the Bernie bonuses to a pot based on championship success over the last 10 years. Possibly with a few points for Williams and McLaren for historical success.

As this is not a new idea I fear that it will become reality and this could pretty easily mean the end for Williams as it is currently formed as it is hard to see how they will able to afford to do much more then attend in 2020 and 2021 rather than compete. :-(

If as expected Williams lose £15m this year and as there is no indication that the 2020 budget is going to be larger than this year's then the same losses would be expected in 2020.

I suspect that the reallocation of bonus money along with the prize money for finishing 5th or 6th was part of the argument that has allowed for the current debt levels. If this were true then debt would not be a problem.

Without this being true it is hard to see who would want to lend Williams any money beyond evening out cash flow.

Under these conditions repayment of the existing loan along with a gradual reduction of the overdraft and revolving credit facility would seem likely and this would further reduce the R&D budget.

There has been talk of selling WAE but it is hard to see who would want it as it is so heavily entwined with WGPE.

Another option seems to be the sale of all of the spare land and the factory which would then be leased back. This would probably put Williams back to having no debt, but also with minimal security to offer for any future borrowing.

With Haas still apparently unhappy about Racing Point not being classed as new team and benefiting from prize money not available to Haas and Liberty being more open than Bernie, there doesn't seem to be a chance of a one off favour of about £40m to keep Williams as part of the show.

I suppose the possibility of Renault and Haas leaving and there being fewer teams to split the prize money between could help. But this would mean 3 cars from some teams possibly highlighting the gap between them and the rest and making F1 less attractive to the hosts.

So to me things look gloomy unless a new source of money is found.

Bye

Ian

We dont know how much Latifi sr is going to pump into the team. We also dont know how much more rokit is going to be paying for their increased sponsorship. As ever the questionmark is what Rexona want to do.

Re: The All New FW43
Anderis 06 December, 2019 11:45
Quote:
IanSmithISA
https://www.racefans.net/2019/12/04/will-f1s-teams-buy-into-libertys-latest-prize-money-plan/
Very depressing article to me. This is so much worse than the previous plans I had read about. I had some hopes that 2021 agreement will be much better but this is only marginally better than what we have now and I'm afraid not enough to make a real difference. Can't say I'm very much surprised but I'm still disappointed. F1 is no longer the product of quality I want to watch and now I have my doubts if 2021 is going to change that, which is what I had hoped for.
I guess it's time for me to accept that F1 has turned into something I don't enjoy anymore and move on to something else. But it's hard to accept as I had great joy with F1 in 2007-2014 period and not it seems lost.

Deep inside me I'm bitter and furious about that actually.

Re: The All New FW43
Mikef1 06 December, 2019 16:22
Quote:
Anderis
Quote:
IanSmithISA
https://www.racefans.net/2019/12/04/will-f1s-teams-buy-into-libertys-latest-prize-money-plan/
Very depressing article to me. This is so much worse than the previous plans I had read about. I had some hopes that 2021 agreement will be much better but this is only marginally better than what we have now and I'm afraid not enough to make a real difference. Can't say I'm very much surprised but I'm still disappointed. F1 is no longer the product of quality I want to watch and now I have my doubts if 2021 is going to change that, which is what I had hoped for.
I guess it's time for me to accept that F1 has turned into something I don't enjoy anymore and move on to something else. But it's hard to accept as I had great joy with F1 in 2007-2014 period and not it seems lost.

Deep inside me I'm bitter and furious about that actually.

Unpopular opinion, but I hate the current cars. They look cool and everything but they are terrible racing cars and insanely hard/expensive to produce. Not only that, but the teams and drivers have reached such a level of efficiency but the human element is gone, as is most human error. The sport has turned into a self obsessed shitshow of perfection.

Re: The All New FW43
Anderis 06 December, 2019 22:16
So true, Mike.

The 2017 rule changes were stupid, as it was basically reversing all F1 was striving to achieve for the past 10 or 15 years.
Even 2014 cars were not so bad in comparison. Rosberg and Hamilton probably had more actual wheel-to-wheel fight (not DRS flybys) in Bahrain GP 2014 alone than all top cars in 2019 in all races combined. But people complained about slow and bad looking cars and that's what we've got. The standards have got so low that now every race that is not a walk in the park for the winner is being hailed as a great race.
At least 2021 aero changes seem sensible, but with current levels of efficiency in F1, I'm afraid it will not be enough. I'm not keen on watching the two-tier formula we have now, even if the racing between cars is good, especially now, when the attrition levels and upredictability is so low, human error is so rare etc. But with budget caps being so high and with so many exceptions and with top teams set to continue getting such a big chunk of TV money, the two-tier formula is not likely to be gone IMO. And I'm tired that the pecking order is basically what it was 2 races ago, 10 races ago, a year ago and three years ago... always the same. In all fairness, I'm not so much a racing fan but a fan of unpredictable sports and F1 is no longer one although it had brilliant levels of unpredictability a decade ago.

It could be made so much better if Liberty had the balls to risk Mercedes and Red Bull quitting the sport and push through the initial budget caps and TV money share ideas, maybe lure Ferrari to sign a new agreement with a big bonus as long as it is taken as a profit before the rest is presented with choice: "take what we offer or go away". If F1 could keep Ferrari, McLaren and Williams onboard, as well as Hamilton and Verstappen as drivers, it could afford to lose all other teams IMO. I'm sure there would be many new teams willing to join with a good budget cap and TV money share model.

Re: The All New FW43
j-s 07 December, 2019 17:35
Fw42B will be make not discussing Williams' demise more difficult. It'll be bad. Real bad. Stunted at birth.

Re: The All New FW43
GroveF1 08 December, 2019 11:07
Think it's worth taking these 2 staff from Renault?

[www.autosport.com]

Re: The All New FW43
Mehryar 08 December, 2019 16:32
Quote:
GroveF1
Think it's worth taking these 2 staff from Renault?
[www.autosport.com]

so they're changing everyone except Abiteboul himself? They're shooting in their foot with keeping this guy imo.



http://img150.imageshack.us/img150/1095/mehryarsigyo7.gif

Re: The All New FW43
IanSmithISA 09 December, 2019 08:39
Good morning,

I agree with MikeF1 that there are plenty of possibilities and Williams have a great record of finding funds, including things like the creation and sale of Williams Hybrid Power.

The general consensus, how reliable this is I don't know, is that Williams had the lowest budget in 2019 and in recent years we have had Stroll supply funds, followed by Kubica with $15m (ish) so it seems unlikely that Latifi is going to bring a lot more.

A Williams press release said the RokIT Drinks brands would feature prominently, looking at the 2019 car where could you place logos prominently and be worth more money to Williams?

The Rexona space would be the logical suggestion as the rear wing and engine cover that Orlens had would probably go to a Latifi chosen brand.

The issue for RokIT Drinks are the F1 rules specifying predominantly the same livery on both cars through ought the season, meaning that it could be hard to advertise the various RokIT brands.

Although there is a ROK Natural Energy energy drink most other RoIT drinks are not RokIT branded.

So although in my mind Williams are nowhere near financial collapse they are starting look like Debenhams (a high street retail chain that got into deep trouble) a few years ago. Yes things are not going well today but we have a lot of history and there is plenty of time to adapt. Yet Debenhams never did adapt successfully, even after Mike Ashley of Sports Direct fame bought just under 30% of the company.

The way that Debenhams was structured meant that the existing board had the support of a few major share holders and were safe in their positions so they just ignored Mike Ashley.

Under UK regulations if you try to buy more than 30% of a company you have to offer to buy all of the shares at their highest price over the last 12 months (simplified version of the rules :-).

If and I know that this is an if, the 2020 car has all the space currently occupied by RokIT and the space currently occupied by Rexona now occupied by RokIT there is very little left to sell elsewhere.

RokIT may very well have saved Williams and we should all be grateful for that, but have Williams had to give up too much space for that?

On the subject of Cyril Abiteboul I suspect that he is safe for a while as the F1 project was at least in part a Carlos Ghosn project and the new Renault CEO Clotilde Delbos is considering the F1 project. Changing the head of a project that you are considering abandoning seems unlikely and with Carlos's problems there may have been less scrutiny on the F1 project than there should have been.

Given that Clotilde has come in and not said yes F1 is vital to us it is likely that some people would see an opportunity elsewhere and consider will I still have a job at Renault in 6 month?

Bye

Ian

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