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Re: Is it just me
Posted by: Myvatn
Date: 04/09/2018 11:05
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Vettel is Rosberg/Button-tier, not Alonso/Hamilton-tier. That has been clear for quite a while.

That's rewriting history I think. He's messing up at Ferrari, but in the Red Bull years he was clearly the best driver bar maybe Alonso. At Ferrari he has much higher expectations on him, the pressure in Monza was huge. He had to win, any other result would have been seen as unacceptable. HAM is now in a much more comfortable position - which he achieved by himself, of course.

When he had a broken-spirited Mark Webber as a teammate? How much was Vettel and how much was the car? He never had a good yardstick in his Red Bull years. He got beat by Ricciardo pretty badly didn't he?

Vettel's performances against Kimi would have been very impressive if Alonso hadn't been about twice as dominant against him.
Yes, in 2014 he was beaten by Ricciardo by quite a margin. But one cannot take one season as summary for an 11-year and 4 WDC career, otherwise one could say taking just 2011 that Hamilton is also on the same level as Button.

In 2010 Vettel won the title in his third complete season. In 2011 and 2013 he had a clearly dominant car, but in 2012 that wasn't the case and yet he won making almost no mistake of his own. If he's not able to handle the pressure, then how could he win in 2012 after Senna crashed on him on the first lap of the last race?
Just in the last four races Vettel has had more mess-ups than in the whole 2010 to 2013 period, and that's counting also the clashes with the not-so-dispirited Webber in 2010. I think that's down to the far higher pressure being a Ferrari driver and following on Michael Schumacher's footsteps is putting on him.

I don't buy for one second that the 2010 and 2012 cars weren't dominant. There is little doubt in my mind that Button or Rosberg could (and probably would) have won the 2010-2013 titles had they been in Vettel's place.

Sometimes drivers just end up in terrific situations and it can take ages before they're figured out (and sometimes never). Häkkinen, Coulthard, Fisichella, Räikkönen, Montoya, Ralf Schumacher are such examples.

Then you have some drivers that are chronically underrated; the Heidfelds and Hülkenbergs. Button and Rosberg were in this category for a long time. I think Hülkenberg will surprise many against Ricciardo next year as I think he has come alive with the new 2017-era regs that mitigated his greatest weakness (tyre management).
That's your opinion, but I don't think it is supported by facts. By mid-season 2012 Ferrari was the best car, and in the last races the McLaren was unreliable but clearly the fastest car in most occasions (HAM and BUT got 6 poles out of the last 10 GPs). The pecking order varied wildly between different tracks, 8 drivers from 6 different teams took wins.. If indeed the Red Bull was the dominant car it was well concealed. In 2010 I agree Red Bull was probably the best car overall, but still Vettel was in his third season against a far more experienced rival like Alonso.

How many races did Vettel throw away in 2012? How many in 2017-18? I think this alone tells you he's just not racing at his best in Ferrari. It is obviously a limit, but ROS never looked able to pull off stuff like Vettel's win in Monza 2008, let alone winning four championships in a row. He improved massively from his beginnings to his WDC win in 2016, but the fact that he retired immediately afterwards is an explicit admission that he felt not to be at the same level as Hamilton.

As per Hulkenberg... Mister 0 podiums in 151 races. Matched and then beaten by Perez in Force India. He's a good driver, but he's definitely not underrated and is where he deserves - a good midfield team.

PS: Hakkinen in the same sentence as Coulthard and Ralf... come on.

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