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Am I the only one who starts to get the jeebers by all the smooth marketing talking that Stroll does? I already find him repulsive and we're only one race in this season..







Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2017:04:05:23:25:21 by AlanJones.

I think you just don't like him AJ.

I like what he had to say; never been in mainland china, and he admitted he doesn't really know the track. What's so slick and smarmy about that?

The only veiled positive thing he said was something I alluded to a week ago about the wide open spaces being more forgiving for him. He had a bad Melbourne- he's looking for positives, and he's found one.

As a Williams fan, what would you prefer from him? Despair? Apathy?
Im not sure it would make any difference.

I would want him to stop smooth talking that he fudged the complete weekend up. That he admits that he has to learn still, that he makes mistakes and that the job may be harder than he imagined. Not the@#$%&like there are more races this season, the team did a good job, I didn't make mistakes and the likes of all those crappy remarks.

Edit: and I forgot the best one: my critics are jealous.
Jealous.. really Lance? Really? Most would call it objective and correct considering you've crashed 3 times already in just 7 or 8 sessions that you've driven including testing.







Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2017:04:06:07:58:45 by AlanJones.

Alan has got Strolls head on the chopping block!

AJ sounds a little like Jos Verstappen? Anger management, think anger management.

"When you talk, you are repeating what you already know. But if you listen, you may learn something new." - Dalai Lama

Haha. Well Now has made a name for himself again. But no, I'm not angry. I'm just uprised that a newbie like Stroll really thinks he can fool anyone by turning the blame away from himself. We all see the footage. We all see what's happening here and we all know Maldonados history. I seriously think the little guy needs to learn some dignity and build upon that. That would be a start.

Quote:

AlanJones
Haha. Well Now has made a name for himself again. But no, I'm not angry. I'm just uprised that a newbie like Stroll really thinks he can fool anyone by turning the blame away from himself. We all see the footage. We all see what's happening here and we all know Maldonados history. I seriously think the little guy needs to learn some dignity and build upon that. That would be a start.

I have the same feelings !
But when I look at "new young generation" I feel like they are from a different planet.
Sometimes they blow me away how they think and act



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2017:04:06:09:58:04 by TerraNova19.

Quote:

AlanJones
Haha. Well Now has made a name for himself again. But no, I'm not angry. I'm just uprised that a newbie like Stroll really thinks he can fool anyone by turning the blame away from himself. We all see the footage.

But this quote isn't meant to be about Melbourne. It's meant to be about China. He's looking forwards, not brooding on the past like you are doing.

Quote:

AlanJones
We all see what's happening here and we all know Maldonados history.

Aaand there we have it. I think the term is called "emotional baggage".

Stroll has enough on his plate already. F1 is a confidence game, and clearly, he is suffering from a lack of it behind the wheel. Stroll's problem is simply a lack of experience pushing cars which are light-years faster than f3 this hard. He's got himself in any unfortunate run of;

mistake= lower confidence= too slow= more pressure= forced to respond= not used to pushing= mistake

which all started when he ran a fraction to wide over the exit curb in Barcelona. His approach to qualifying was nothing like Maldonado's. It was like someone scared silly of making a mistake, tippy-toeing around and missing curbs out completely. Same in Barcelona after his mistakes. He is clearly trying to avoid mistakes behind the wheel and as such, I don't need him to martyr himself out to the media to feel like he is responding appropriately. Everything he does behind the wheel says he doesn't want to make mistakes. He doesn't have an attitude problem like Pastor, he has a confidence and experience problem.

As for the media, well that is irrelevant, but he was getting criticism before he turned a wheel. Obviously, there are those just looking to hang him for being a pay driver, and for a young guy not used to massive media attention, I don't blame him for not freely handing them more rope.

This is nothing like Maldonado. Pastor was 8 years older when he made his F1 debut with 4 seasons of GP2 and 2 of Renault World Series, both of which are I believe above the level of European F3. He couldn't have been better prepared, but he came in with an attitude problem and he was too old and stubborn to change. Pastor's mistakes were almost entirely territorial disputes with competitors. It was poor racecraft, massive ego, and a refusal to learn another way.

It's apples and pears. In fact, from what I saw in Melbourne, Stroll's race craft isn't so bad, and nor is his race pace when he get's into it. The guy just needs time, and patience. After all, he's only had one GP.

Lets get one thing clear before we get into a deeper discussion here Crusty. There is a difference between me rating the driver Strioll and me rating the person Stroll. As a driver I have no doubt Stroll can do it. He has won the F3 championship for a reason and it couldnt be only because of daddy.
But he can only achieve a high level if he just tones himself down. He hasnt proven anything and he has only proven to be mentally prone by crashing 3 times and when one looks at his onboard footage, one will see a driver that struggles to get "in the zone".

I think Stroll needs to take a step back from finding excuses and putting remarks out like "they are just jealous". I think Stroll should crawl back into his comfort space and just do his job. Dont be a d!ck about it like youre a great driver. Because, as Ive said, he hasnt proven anything (yet). This all doesnt have anything to do with confidence. It has all to do with being that d!ck that he shouldnt be.

Verstappen, to name an example, was laid down to the same critics and to the same pressure. Maybe even more pressure because of his even younger age compared to Stroll. But did you hear Verstappen say things like "you are all jealous?" or when he @#$%& it up hear him say "oh, it doesnt matter.. there are 20 races remaining"? No, Verstappen bowed his head down and went to work and tried to perform even better. Tried to not make the same mistake again. And so he did. And after that you got to hear his opinion. But only after he showed to everyone what he could do. Not scream from the rooftops that you are the new prodigy and just make a donkey out of yourself by binning it and making ridiculous remarks on the fly. Yet again, that hasnt got anything to do with confidence, it is a matter of personality.

THAT is the difference between a fantastic talent and just a talent. THAT is the difference why Lance will never become what Max is now. And that is fine. But then do your fudging job and stop fudging moaning about people being unfair to you. Just prove them wrong by driving your @ss off. Something Im sure off that Lance can do. As Ive said before, I have no doubts about his racing skills. But the guy needs to work on his personality and learn some dignity. Thats what could make or break the guy. And I surely hope he has the right people around him that he listens to. Not only "yay sayers".

So in conclusion, no there is no Maldonado trauma here. There are only the parralels that I see comparing the two.

What rubbish. Why all the lance apologists? It is ludacrous. Lemon. Out of his depth. Will sink and drown. Will be entertaining to watch.

DOES NOT BELONG IN F1 FFS.

Jealous???? That is the word come from rich people, son of billionaires. Easy come easy go "boy". Everybody watching you, for now you're really look stupid billionaires not a talented billionaires. Prove it!!

How has Lance been screaming from the rooftops that he is the next prodigy? What examples do you have of this? I've not heard him blow his own trumpet at all yet. He seems pretty humble to me every time I hear him speak. Maybe we have not been reading the same things? Or maybe you are bringing a lot of emotion into this?

Quote:

Lance Stroll
you're always going to find jealous people and people that don't like you for the wrong reasons and that's the way it is.

The jealousy comment was one justified criticism targeted at specific individuals - F1 wannabees who have drawn comparisons between his performance and his money, and his position in the sport over them. Does that make Lance a "dick"? Does that mean he's saying all criticisms about his track performance is jealousy? No. Evidently, he isn't saying that. He has just as much talent and potential as any other F1 hopeful, but it feels like a remarkable coincidence that a driver with money who makes mistakes immediately attracts the same levels of personal hatred reserved for Pastor.

Verstappen was never regarded as a pay driver, so that's a whole level of criticism he never had to deal with off the bat. Stroll came into F1 with a big suitcase full of money and a monkey on his back. Verstappen didn't.

Further, Verstappen hit the ground running. He impressed hugely on debut and had proved to most of the paddock, himself included, that he was special before he made mistakes (from Monaco onwards due to overconfidence?) which meant he was defending himself from a pretty secure position internally, and externally. He could afford to say "yeah sorry" without it being construed that this was proof that a) he didn't deserve to be in F1 and b) he was a joke paydriver who was promoted unfairly.

Stroll hadn't even started his competitive F1 career before he was being compared to a villified former F1 figure. So he's in a very different position, and therefore responding differently. What he said really isn't that bad, but the speed with which you link him to Maldonado suggests that you really are transferring your frustrations with PM onto LS. I think people are shaped by circumstances, and both PM and LS were / are desperate to prove that they deserve their place despite their money- a desperation created by their peers who are fighting tooth and nail, on and off the track to beat their rivals by any means at their disposal. Why can't Lance call them out for this?

This desperation to prove their nay-sayers wrong then leads to errors, and a torrent of criticism as people then see what they want to. For someone to ignore it all and say "hands up, yeah you're right, Im bad, I wont say anything positive about the future because I want you all to know how bad I feel about this- go ahead- slag me off" - well, I couldn't manage it, that's for sure. What is is meant to be? A saint?

At the end of the day, I see a perfectly normal 18 year old, who doesn't seem to be strutting about, who has a healthy degree of self-reflection (IMO, almost too much as he is beginning to crumble, a bit like Hill at times) who just needs to be left alone and given time.

As far as I can see, you have judged him entirely on his use of one word.

This discussion is actually quite personal to me, because a number of colleagues at work who I actually like, and to whom I am consistently sensitive, friendly and generous towards, keep launching into scathing diatribes against the middle class before jokingly impersonating me in an exaggeratedly middle class manner. (It's all relative at the end of the day) Whilst it's banter, they are clearly carrying baggage and it is no doubt affecting their ability to properly make friends with me. They are civil- normally- but Im not in the clique and it sometimes spills over into plain ignoring/talking over me. (they're young) So who's the dick in this circumstance? They are carrying a frustration- a jealousy, but if I called them out on it, I would be hated. So what to do? Remain silent and take it on the chin? Because clearly, thats not what they are doing. They are using me as an outlet for their frustrations.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2017:04:06:16:20:30 by crusty_bread.

@#$%&...back up back up There is a lot of Lance bashing going on here:-(

My opinion of lance is unchanged. Simply because gio got caught in a puddle on a different acceleration due to running wide, doesnt mean lance is suddenly better.

Not only is lance slow, he doesnt know how to finish a race yet. He is trying to get too much too soon. You will see lance get no points in bahrain too.

Lance's breaks failed in Melbourne and Perez went fishing on him in China. he's not done much wrong in race conditions.

He could've avoided Perez. Perez could've backed off. Problem only being.. Perez finished and Lance didn't. So in my opinion, Lance should've backed off.

what and painted a great big target on his back?It's a racing incident. Let's face it- he would never have scored any points anyway in China. Not in that car with that set up.

That's not the point. The point is knowing when to fight and when to take a step back to take two steps ahead later on. Should Lance have finished, that would've even been three steps.

Yeah it was a bit clumsy from Lance.

I'm not sure finishing a race in 14th would have been any steps at all. He got very close in Melbourne. I'm sure he's aware he can complete a race distance. That's not my concern, and that's not why I watch motorRACING.

If you want our drivers to be @#$%& then fine, but I don't. I remember screwing out over rosberg in 2009 because alonso went fishing into turn 1 in Barcelona at the start- just dangled his front wheels before the braking zone, with a six inch overlap on the inside. Rosberg completely rolled over and waved him past, and ended up getting pipped by heidfeld which ultimately cost Williams a constructors position.

this conservative, flag finishing points hoovering attitude- admittedly thrust upon him due to having bad teammates- changed him from a racer into just a fast driver known as a soft touch. You can 'trust' him to dive out of the way in any circumstance at the first whiff of trouble. That, ultimately cost him the 2014 championship imo. His fine judgement was off. Lewis knew by that point rosberg was soft, it put a target on his back in a way someone like Webber or alonso so did not and Lewis exploited that with some muscly driving tactics like Bahrain which he wouldn't have tried on others and to which Nico duly obliged. In the end, nico got all sore and petulant and caused a collision in Belgium which got his wrist slapped and went back to being meek- leaving the door wide open in the USA. I don't want lance turning into a rosberg or a bottas in racing situations. I want a verstappen, and that requires drawing some reasonable, consistent lines in the sand to your competitors. The commentators called it as a racing incident- 50/50. You have a point, but it's hardly an unbiased one.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2017:04:12:08:50:54 by crusty_bread.

Nico Rosberg is a WDC...he beat Hamilton to the 2016 championship.

He's also one of the least rated champions and certainly not the reason why I watch motor racing.

I remember once trying to argue that Webber should take a 'little' responsibility for his crash with vettel in 2009 Istanbul because he saw him veering towards him and in his own words 'there was no give'- ie he chose to stand his ground and ended up out of the race as a consequence. Im not sure you agreed with me on that one even though I stated that vettel was mostly to blame. I think most people felt very clear vettel was entirely to blame.

But what AJ is arguing is that because lance ended up out of the race, lance was in the wrong. But Webber ended up out of that race so I guess AJ is arguing that webber was in the wrong there as well. He could have taken 2nd behind vettel had he let vettel bully him all over the track and not tried to stand his ground. Is that what you think? That lance should not have stood his ground and should have let Perez through and that Webber should not have stood his ground and should have let vettel through?

I see your point crusty, dunno what to think, my mind is not with it at the moment

Lance is not at the level where he can stamp any authority. That would be like some small gay man walking into a miners lunch room demanding to use the microwave next. It just wouldnt fly.

A talent like lance needs some time in the middle. End of.

Quote:

Right wing Greenie
Lance is not at the level where he can stamp any authority. That would be like some small gay man walking into a miners lunch room demanding to use the microwave next. It just wouldnt fly.
A talent like lance needs some time in the middle. End of.

What about Max Verstappen??? He stamped authority and he was just 18 years old???

Never mind

I was going to make exactly that point.

duffer, A debutant batsman comes out looking nervous, leaving easy balls and blocking anything on his stumps and a top line bowler will get on top of him and have him for breakfast.

Start as you mean to go on. Otherwise, if a driver starts off meek and then tries to step it up, the chances of a few collisions will be even more likely. I don't subscribe to this 'one rule for one driver, one rule for another' nonsense. That's when drivers like Senna started looking really bad, like when he punched Irvine for daring to drive normally on debut.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2017:04:12:17:02:33 by crusty_bread.

Sounds great in theory crusty, but there has to be talent there. Max is the most talented young man in f1 since alonso. This is a 1 in 15 year event. Do not compare lance with max, it just is not right.

If he spends some time in the middle (thanks for expanding on my subtle cricket analogy) he will become a decent journyman. Tis all he can ever hope for.

Quote:

Right wing Greenie
Lance is not at the level where he can stamp any authority. That would be like some small gay man walking into a miners lunch room demanding to use the microwave next. It just wouldnt fly.
A talent like lance needs some time in the middle. End of.

Exactly my point. And Crusty, I do understand why you call me biased. But I am not. Im just as objective as ever. I am even rooting for Lance to do wonders. But before this can happen, you need to prove yourself. And proving yourself is by keeping your head down, be admissive and just finish the race. When you @#$%& up then admit your mistake and move along. Thats the only way you can get to a point where you can and are allowed (as well as by the team as the fans) to put your mark on the sport. And if thats by defending heavily or by going fast but making mistakes, thats not the issue at that point anymore. It is that you have proven yourself. And the only way for Lance to do this, is to finish. So at Bahrain he has to finish. Else he will be the laughing stock of the grid. 80 million invested and not even a race finish.

Quote:

Right wing Greenie
Sounds great in theory crusty, but there has to be talent there. Max is the most talented young man in f1 since alonso. This is a 1 in 15 year event. Do not compare lance with max, it just is not right.
If he spends some time in the middle (thanks for expanding on my subtle cricket analogy) he will become a decent journyman. Tis all he can ever hope for.

And again I agree with Duff here. Lance has to do it differently than Max. And the only way Lance can prove a point and shut people like me up, is to finish. And taking a step back and let Perez through would have got him maybe 14th place, but at least a finish on which he can build upon. Right now, he hasnt got anything.

The only proving lance would do to Perez by waving him through (and the closely following 2/3 cars) and finishing 14th is that he is submissive. Finishing the race won't revise perez' attitude with regards to how to race lance. He's not going to think 'oh maybe I shouldn't have attempted that move that worked a treat because..,this guy can finish races, I'd better be more careful around him' he's going to think 'wow I got away with that' and do it again. And his peers will see it and think likewise. It's a competitive advantage worth exploiting. 'Why hang back until a good overtaking spot when you can throw it down the inside anywhere on him?' It's not quite that bad with bottas- who has multiple podium finishes to his name- but it's getting there. People take dives at him and he usually complies. He tried defending once vs raikkonen in Mexico but it was too little too late and he kind of gave up after that.

Finishing races doesn't win racing respect. People try what they know they can get away with. Did Montoya show the then 5 times WDC any respect in Brazil 2001- his second race? Nope. You push for any advantage on anyone and exploit it.

Perez almost lost a wing, or broke his suspension. He got a fright and the rest of the grid will have taken note. lance is here to compete on a level footing with his peers. Try it on at your peril.

the fastest way to earn respect is to stand your ground, provided you have a reasonable case, and that is what stroll did. He upheld a basic code of racing- that you shouldn't yield the apex if you're still ahead- and that is why it was a racing incident.

Quote:

crusty_bread

Finishing races doesn't win racing respect.

Too right. Max Chilton had a quite remarkable record for finishing races.

Quote:

Wiki
Chilton is the only driver to have finished every race of his rookie season,
Chilton finished every Formula One race he had contested until the 2014 Canadian Grand Prix, which meant that he had finished 25 consecutive races, 19 of them in his rookie season. This is a record for most classified finishes in a rookie season. Nick Heidfeld holds the record for most consecutive classified finishes at 41.