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That's it then the car seems like a dud,
They have no idea

By the look of it i think the season just ended today.

We are again for a long and desperate season.

Why the hell dont do like FI does not too much parts to evaluate just concetrating to get the maximum out of the package.

Back to back testing and bull@###

Hopeless, but a mjor turnaround in one week was never likely.

The call about how best to allocate resources ahead of 2014 is looking a fair bit easier now....

WilliamsF1 is a dead team sadly.

"100% certain things will be different in Malaysia"
"Williams have found a solution"

Can someone call Solus please?
Sad times. I always have hope Williams can improve their package as they gain understanding of it, but as of now, I'm ignoring press releases and settling in for a dull dull year.

Dont worry we are going to win in spain

Its anderis fault he gave all his negative vibe to the car.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013:03:22:09:54:24 by azouris.

If things remain this way, we've got a number of problems on our hands.

- Renault, as we know, are looking to reduce the number of teams they supply to. At this point, a floundering, death-spiralling, Williams would be the easiest one to drop. Where do we go then? Wherever we get our engines from for 2014, nobody's going to want to give us a particularly favourable deal and certainly nothing beyond a simple customer arrangement.

- Pastor's not happy. PDVSA are not going to be happy. All the other teams around us, maybe even some at the top, would take him and his millions of squids in a heartbeat. I fully expect him to be tapped-up by Sauber, FIF1 and maybe Lotus - at this point, who could blame him for bailing out? We lose PDVSA and we're done for.

- No sponsor worth their salt is going to touch us with a barge pole. It was difficult enough already.

- Something's clearly not right in the technical and development process. This is more of the same back-and-forth between ok cars and poor ones we're so familiar with this past decade. I'm not going to start the scapegoat-fest again but if Sam Michael had producesd this car we'd have been all over him. Another technical overhaul at this stage is surely out of the question with 2014 looming large and the last being so recent?

- Valtteri will either be hoovered up by someone else or he'll be dropped a la The Hulk to accommodate another pay driver and this time we won't be so fortunate as to get someone as genuinely quick as Pastor. How does Bruno Senna and van der Garde sound for 2014?

Of course, if the team can get on top of things by the start of the European season and settle back into a decent midfield position then I think we'll be ok. However, if the struggle continues then things begin to look very grim indeed. Fixing the 35 is crucial, but I'm sure the team knows this.

I would not exactly write us off just yet ... the team just has to keep working to resolve the issues. Just like McLaren has to do with their troubled car.

I wasn't expecting a fix on 1st and 2nd practice yet. I think team is taking this problem methodically. First unmount every upgrade and do basics tests step by step.

I reminds me a little bit of with desktop computer problems, where everything looks fine and dandy but it's simply not working as it should. So you strip of everything and try a slow rebuild to see where the problem is.


Williams Racing

i just think we've lost too much ground already. Even if we do resolve our problems the rest of the grid will have pulled further away in time it takes.

I'm afraid...

Quote:

MansellsMoustache

- Pastor's not happy. PDVSA are not going to be happy. All the other teams around us, maybe even some at the top, would take him and his millions of squids in a heartbeat. I fully expect him to be tapped-up by Sauber, FIF1 and maybe Lotus - at this point, who could blame him for bailing out? We lose PDVSA and we're done for.

contracts are not like shoes that change when you want

it is like the song skyfall by adele...this is the end......hold your breath and count to ten..unfortunately sort of deja vu....

I will still support the team but i will choose a second fav team so that i can watch with interest. Definitely it is not alonso i detest ferrari... red bull is way to arrogant and won too much ..my interest lies with raikonnen or hamilton whom i rate one of the best drivers around

DOOMED

Well. I guess it depends what the problem is. If it's something hard to fix, than yes. I agree with you.

I'd love to read Mikef1 opinion


Williams Racing



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013:03:22:11:24:07 by MViper.

Unfortunately I didn't watch practice but a glance at the time sheets tells me if we've improved it is marginal. The team believed they had found a solution but it doesn't appear to be the case unfortunately, I no longer optimistically believe we are sand bagging and we are seeing the real pace of this car at this track.

I don't think we can sort this out until we can get a brand new update package that works well as a whole. The car can't be the problem. It's the FW34 essentially. I believe we are running a Frankenstein car with lots of parts that don't work together, an easy mistake to make when every session that the team has available, is spent testing lots of different parts.

This is the feeling I got after testing when we came and the team still had different noses, wings, floors, exhausts. The team need to focus more on refining one package.

Let's say the problem was clear in Australia, one could assume it wouldn't be until at least round 5 that the updates made it to the car with a fix, bearing in mind development, testing and building. While I am an adamant supporter of Williams and always will be, and watching another slump is somewhat frustrating. I tend to look towards Kimi to make the championship interesting, and just hope that the teams faith in the car is not misplaced. If McLaren and Sauber fix their slump before us, then it will be time to write of this season and look to 2014. We are still on a level playing field with them.

Pastor Maldonado has ruled out fighting for a spot in Q3 in the Malaysian Grand Prix despite admitting his Williams feels slightly better than in Australia.

The Grove-based squad failed to live up to expectations in the season opener as both Maldonado and team-mate Valtteri Bottas struggled for pace.

Maldonado said the warmer temperature at Sepang had improved matters for Williams, but he conceded his car is still not competitive enough to fight for a top-10 grid slot.

"It's a bit better now, but still difficult. It's completely different situations, different tracks, different conditions," said Maldonado after posting the 16th fastest time in second practice.

"It's quite difficult to understand all the problems that we have. It's difficult to find the solution. I think it's going to be a hard weekend for us, but we need to wait for the race. Anything can happen and we need to be ready for whatever happens.

"We improved the car a little bit. We will improve for qualifying tomorrow, but we are still far away from the target.

"Q3 is looking far way, and points we'll see. Anything can happen in the race. We need to be consistent and try to get 100 per cent out of what we have."

The Williams driver claimed his team understood what was wrong with the FW35, but admitted it was proving very hard to find solutions.

"We know what is happening with the car. We don't know how to solve the problems. We tried different things. We improved a little bit, but there is still a lot to do."

This article from Autosport essentially confirms what I feel.

The parts the team has to hand are not enough to fix the issues with the car. A specific update package is required o tackle these problems.

Quote:

J4ck

Quote:

MansellsMoustache

- Pastor's not happy. PDVSA are not going to be happy. All the other teams around us, maybe even some at the top, would take him and his millions of squids in a heartbeat. I fully expect him to be tapped-up by Sauber, FIF1 and maybe Lotus - at this point, who could blame him for bailing out? We lose PDVSA and we're done for.

contracts are not like shoes that change when you want

Nope, we've never seen the use of get-out clauses, unilateral breaking of contracts by one party at the expense of another or lengthy, bitter arbitration procedures in F1. That reassures me no end.

Who did PDVSA hire for the legal work on the Wiliams deal? Lionel Hutz?

There are two more seasons of the contract ... with about 80 million Euros total in the game, you have an idea of what could be the clause to terminate unilaterally this contract?

Thanks Mike!

That's confusing to me too. Usually as I watch testing closely, teams starts with blank sheet of paper, aka basic car. And when they understand that, than comes the time for upgrades.

I tend to think, Williams staff were thinking that they know FW35 well as it's almost the same as 34. Perfectly fine for upgrading it to "new trends" like coandas etc. And they've had experiences with these type of exhaust from Mugello test.

As I see it the problem lies in quantity of upgrades instead of quality.


Williams Racing

Quote:

J4ck
There are two more seasons of the contract ... with about 80 million Euros total in the game, you have an idea of what could be the clause to terminate unilaterally this contract?

No, because I'm not privy to the info. If you are, please share. I'm going with the entirely reasonable assumption that PDVSAs lawyers are not utterly incompetent and have surely left some room for manoeuvre. People just don't sign contracts giving away hundreds of millions of euros without safeguards. Do they?

Quote:

MansellsMoustache

Quote:

J4ck
There are two more seasons of the contract ... with about 80 million Euros total in the game, you have an idea of what could be the clause to terminate unilaterally this contract?

No, because I'm not privy to the info. If you are, please share. I'm going with the entirely reasonable assumption that PDVSAs lawyers are not utterly incompetent and have surely left some room for manoeuvre. People just don't sign contracts giving away hundreds of millions of euros without safeguards. Do they?

Obviously I'm not privy to the info.too... but ask Button and Honda how much it cost to terminate a contract signed.

you're making assumptions .. the facts are that there is a contract until the end of 2015



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013:03:22:12:24:52 by J4ck.

Quote:

MansellsMoustache
- Renault, as we know, are looking to reduce the number of teams they supply to. At this point, a floundering, death-spiralling, Williams would be the easiest one to drop. Where do we go then? Wherever we get our engines from for 2014, nobody's going to want to give us a particularly favourable deal and certainly nothing beyond a simple customer arrangement.

I know it may not be a pretty prospect after the trials of the cosworth engine, but there has been talk of Honda returning as an engine supplier, and i seem to recall Williams and them having a bit of history together. And while they maybe late to the game they will bring full manufacturer support. If they do in fact return. The fact that it appears only Mclaren have entertained the thought of using them, might allow Williams to get a some what decent deal.

Even after reading the minimal amount of progress the team made on Australia, I still refuse to write off the season until the first of the European races. To me it just seems wise to give the engineers a chance to find out what's going on and resolve it. Not having a complete understanding of your own car has become fairly typical since testing was restricted. Ferrari had the problem last year, Williams and Mclaren both have the problem this year, and I don't doubt others will fall foul of it next year.

So until either the team comes out and say the cars a big pile of @#$%&, or they fail to make significant progress once the European season starts (which ever comes first) I won't write them off.

Won't lie though, at the very best these first handful of races are going to be a chore for all Williams fans to sit through. Will have to endure the doom and gloom of the board till the naysayer are proved wrong, or right.

Quote:

J4ck
you're making assumptions .. the facts are that there is a contract until the end of 2015

We signed a works engine supply and marketing contract with BMW in 2003 ensuring "closer integration" up to the end of 2009. It too was described as "watertight" IIRC by Williams - the same language they use for the PDVSA deal now.

Of course, if the team turn it around then the that's fine - the arrangement would still be good for both parties and this is all irrelevant anyway. I certainly hope it doesn't go so wrong.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013:03:22:13:17:54 by MansellsMoustache.

@Xerro - I was neither writing us off nor "naysaying".

Quote:

Xerro

Quote:

MansellsMoustache
- Renault, as we know, are looking to reduce the number of teams they supply to. At this point, a floundering, death-spiralling, Williams would be the easiest one to drop. Where do we go then? Wherever we get our engines from for 2014, nobody's going to want to give us a particularly favourable deal and certainly nothing beyond a simple customer arrangement.

I know it may not be a pretty prospect after the trials of the cosworth engine, but there has been talk of Honda returning as an engine supplier, and i seem to recall Williams and them having a bit of history together. And while they maybe late to the game they will bring full manufacturer support. If they do in fact return. The fact that it appears only Mclaren have entertained the thought of using them, might allow Williams to get a some what decent deal.

Even after reading the minimal amount of progress the team made on Australia, I still refuse to write off the season until the first of the European races. To me it just seems wise to give the engineers a chance to find out what's going on and resolve it. Not having a complete understanding of your own car has become fairly typical since testing was restricted. Ferrari had the problem last year, Williams and Mclaren both have the problem this year, and I don't doubt others will fall foul of it next year.

So until either the team comes out and say the cars a big pile of @#$%&, or they fail to make significant progress once the European season starts (which ever comes first) I won't write them off.

Won't lie though, at the very best these first handful of races are going to be a chore for all Williams fans to sit through. Will have to endure the doom and gloom of the board till the naysayer are proved wrong, or right.

Well said Xerro- good post. Patience is a virtue.

SFW has gone on record stating that Renault are asking for double-price next year. Williams, at best, are 3rd in the customer pecking order there. If Williams are forced to switch to Mercedes, that is not much of a concern as the engine will be all new in any case.

All contracts have breaks in them. It doesn't mean they'll be used but there would almost certainly be clauses in there which allowed either side to break. For example PDVSA may have performance clauses, driver nationality stipulations, not bringing the sport into disrepute, failing to x amount of races per year etc. etc. etc. All of these would allow PDVSA to break the contract.

Williams will likewise have various breaks. Probably more around payment but there will be others.

The most worry obviously for Williams is any potential performance clause. If there is one and it's breached and the post Chavez regime are not as keen on F1 then they can walk away. Simple as that.

The truth is we can only guess and will never know until / if it happens.

There is simply no way a company like PDVSA will keep pumping 10s of millions into a smallish racing team unless they are guaranteed value and they will have protected themselves against that in the contract.

there was some clause on performance .. they would use it in 2011, I guess.

Quote:

MansellsMoustache
@Xerro - I was neither writing us off nor "naysaying".

Sorry, I didn't make it clear, the first part of the post about engines was geared towards you and trying to give you cause to be a bit more hopeful, the latter half was aimed at the general feeling around the board at the moment. I'm sorry it came across like I was aiming that part at you.

It seems that Williams is in serious trouble with exhaust effects again.
2011 revisited...



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2013:03:22:15:04:02 by rpralon.

Any contract can be terminated by 'mutual consent' if it suites both parties. If we can get a works deal with Honda I say go for it. Macca is probably thinking along the same lines though.

Williams and proud of it.

None of the other top teams are running w/o an expansion chamber on their exhaust...

the exhaust on the fw35 is ridiculously simple compared to our competitors...

Quote:

drunkmunky
None of the other top teams are running w/o an expansion chamber on their exhaust...
the exhaust on the fw35 is ridiculously simple compared to our competitors...

I did notice that earlier, and didn't want to say anything for fear of sounding dumb. But it is true.

Top teams are using expansion chambers in their exhaust pipes, and the top Renault teams have big ramps/tunnels to channel the coke bottle air.

Quote:

azouris
Its anderis fault he gave all his negative vibe to the car.

Kill me for that.

FW35ANDERIS

Lol.

Its not that bad. We have had a setback but there is still to be gained from the season.

Williams and proud of it.

Quote:

rpralon
It seems that Williams is in serious trouble with exhaust effects again.
2011 revisited...

It looks as if Sauber has dropped back too this season . . . Sauber also struggled in 2011 . . . we are short of expertise in this area.

Everyone may as well go into hibernation this season. I have a feeling that its going to be worse than 2011

it seems no matter who we hire, the cars just aint good enough. Im beginning to think its not just at the top we have expertise problems, but throughout the factory maybe our levels just dont match our rivals any more.

it seems too much duff information is being supplied by the design teams etc and all the technical sides just aint talking to each other like they should. communication?.

ive never known i team to waste thousand of pounds on upgrades that never ever work like we seem to do these past few years.

to be honest, i think frank will seriously think of selling up now considering what has happened in his personal life lately.

its become too much hard work i think for him. all good thing come to an end they say. Im not writing him off, just i think the game has moved on.

for me i think the 35 will improve, but never better than midfield at best.

I think Ginny's loss would probably have the opposite effect. When you have lost the love of your life, why give up your life's work/passion to sit at home alone?