BMW Sauber F1
Toyota to sell its F1 entry to Serbian Stefan Grand Prix?
By The Offsider
November 27 2009
One day after Sauber was reported to be getting new buyers, we hear this may have to be put on hold. GrandPrix journalist Joe Saward is reporting that Toyota F1 staff have been told to keep working on the 2010 car design, as it seems the entry and car -but most likely not the factory- would have been sold to Stefan Grand Prix
Article at: http://joesaward.wordpress.com/2009/11/27/the-birds-of-cologne/
If this is indeed the case, it would be a major blow for Sauber's chances, unless Renault withdrew, which in our view won't happen for 2010, but rather they will sell a stake of the team -likely Russian investors-.
The Stefan name is not new, as already back in the entry tender we had heard him. Refresh your memories here
Updates soon...
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Discussion started by BMW Sauber F1 (IP Logged), 27/11/2009 09:31
27/11/2009 09:31
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As I was saying repeatedly, Sauber won't race next year. Full stop.
2008 Prediction Champion
still not really a full stop... no confirmation yet... the agreement still under negotiation.. Sauber has bought F1 Team from BMW AG and agreement have been reached... now, it is up to FIA. even if Toyota F1 team have been sold to Stefan, and they had signed Concorde Agreement, Stefan still have to apply or maybe appeal for their grid place like Sauber did. i'm sure if Toyota F1 team have been sold to Stefan, probably the ex-Toyota F1 team will be named as Stefan F1 team as i refer to the buyer... the situation for that will be exactly like BMW Sauber F1 team which now is under Peter Sauber himself... Sauber F1 team now just waiting for greenlight from FIA and Stefan F1 team still have to re-apply for their grid place.. i think that the situation now are not been determined enough so, there are chances for everyone...indeed.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2009:11:27:12:18:29 by BlackNote.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2009:11:27:12:18:29 by BlackNote.
I don't think this is very credible. Toyota are bound to feed their staff "hope" to keep them productive. Whether it is genuine hope or not is debatable. Forgive me for not believing a word that manufacturers will say. ("sure- we will sign until 2012")
It is down to the discretion of the fia and the F1 teams now as to which team gets the nod. IMO. Both teams have withdrawn, so both are surely now at the mercy of the fia. I think Sauber are more likely to get the nod because Toyota are more able to turn their factory to other means- WRC/Le Mans etc. To close the hinwil factory down after a fraudulant bid, coupled by a genuine rescue proposal from the team's original founder would look appalling for both f1 and BMW- I simply cannot see it happening.
It is down to the discretion of the fia and the F1 teams now as to which team gets the nod. IMO. Both teams have withdrawn, so both are surely now at the mercy of the fia. I think Sauber are more likely to get the nod because Toyota are more able to turn their factory to other means- WRC/Le Mans etc. To close the hinwil factory down after a fraudulant bid, coupled by a genuine rescue proposal from the team's original founder would look appalling for both f1 and BMW- I simply cannot see it happening.
Did I read the American investors include the name Penski ?
If so that puts some serious clout into Saubers chances of nailing a grid spot. He's a good man to have in your corner.
sessions
If so that puts some serious clout into Saubers chances of nailing a grid spot. He's a good man to have in your corner.
sessions
BlackNote, as much as I would love to agree with you, I fear we are not in the same situation as Toyota.
The simple fact that they signed the Concorde Agreement and BMW didn't gives them a massive advantage. They have the slot, not Sauber.
So, if Stefan is serious , the other teams don't fail, and Williams still refuses the 14th team (and FIA doesn't do anything against that veto) then Sauber is out
Things look pretty good for Sauber till this Setfan thing emerged, now they are totally @#$%& up.
Funnily BMW has announced a team sale twice on the same day, and just after hours later, another team/contender for the 13th grid slot appeared. The timing is very ironic!
PS: Sessions, yes, I've heard Penske is one of the parties involved, but remain cautious, as we still don't have the grid slot.
Racing against the machine!
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2009:11:27:17:01:47 by Raid Phoenix.
The simple fact that they signed the Concorde Agreement and BMW didn't gives them a massive advantage. They have the slot, not Sauber.
So, if Stefan is serious , the other teams don't fail, and Williams still refuses the 14th team (and FIA doesn't do anything against that veto) then Sauber is out
Things look pretty good for Sauber till this Setfan thing emerged, now they are totally @#$%& up.
Funnily BMW has announced a team sale twice on the same day, and just after hours later, another team/contender for the 13th grid slot appeared. The timing is very ironic!
PS: Sessions, yes, I've heard Penske is one of the parties involved, but remain cautious, as we still don't have the grid slot.
Racing against the machine!
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2009:11:27:17:01:47 by Raid Phoenix.
This story was actually broken by Dieter Rencken on Autosport on Wednesday...
Well, Dieter "just" said Stefan had been spotted in the Cologne factory. This new story says the sell has been finalized and staff have been informed. A subtle difference, eh? 
Racing against the machine!
Racing against the machine!
Things are further evolving. Stefna has just claimed that they have not bought (yet?) the Toyota entry, but have reached some sort of (unknwon) agreement, which I can guess is selling the car design...and most likely and ultimately the entry.
Read: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/80357
On the other hand James Allen is doing a bit of a different analysis, quite optimistic about Sauber's chances, especially with the Todt-Sauber card:
http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2009/11/sauber-buys-his-team-back-from-bmw/
Chances?
AH, the D-Day will be the 10th of December.
Then is when the WSMC will discuss about this, and other, matters
Racing against the machine!
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2009:11:27:20:38:01 by Raid Phoenix.
Read: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/80357
On the other hand James Allen is doing a bit of a different analysis, quite optimistic about Sauber's chances, especially with the Todt-Sauber card:
http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2009/11/sauber-buys-his-team-back-from-bmw/
Chances?
AH, the D-Day will be the 10th of December.
Then is when the WSMC will discuss about this, and other, matters
Racing against the machine!
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2009:11:27:20:38:01 by Raid Phoenix.
The thing is-
A- Toyota have broken the Concorde Agreement. That will not have gone down well with the fia
B- all new owners are subject to the approval of the fia
C- Stefan hasn't even lodged an entry bid yet.
So the way I understand it, it is up to the discretion of the fia who they chose to allow the 13th slot to, and currently, there is only one bidder- Sauber. The fia make up the rules as they go along. Any political advantage granted to Toyota was lost the moment they broke the contract. Now its about whoever has the better proposal, and right now, saving Hinwil looks a better option.
A- Toyota have broken the Concorde Agreement. That will not have gone down well with the fia
B- all new owners are subject to the approval of the fia
C- Stefan hasn't even lodged an entry bid yet.
So the way I understand it, it is up to the discretion of the fia who they chose to allow the 13th slot to, and currently, there is only one bidder- Sauber. The fia make up the rules as they go along. Any political advantage granted to Toyota was lost the moment they broke the contract. Now its about whoever has the better proposal, and right now, saving Hinwil looks a better option.
Toyota hasn't broken there contract with the FIA, they paid everyting and are still working on there TF110 car.
If Stefan is going to drive with a leased car of Toyota they don't realy need to file in an entry becouse they have TMG backing them up. It will all depend on what contract Stefano has with TMG.
If Stefan is going to drive with a leased car of Toyota they don't realy need to file in an entry becouse they have TMG backing them up. It will all depend on what contract Stefano has with TMG.
From my understanding Toyota still has the entry, and haven't broken anything (yet), as YCX has just pointed out.
Unfortunate, but it's the reality.
In fact FIA is still seeking Toyota's legal position to sort this mess. Don't know if they have any chance of stripping Toy's entry in favor of Sauber.
HOWEVER, an interesting point is that if Stefan wants to change the entry name it will need the approval from the other teams. I can see some teams against that, especially Ferrari and to some extend both Mclaren and Mercedes; and Todt could lobby in favor of Sauber too. I don't see Toyota letting Stefan to operate a team, with low budget, under the Toyota name...
So, teams won't make it easy for Stefan, which by the way already failed miserably in the past when trying to enter in F1, for example in 1998 with Lola's cars and I recall in 1996 too. Who to trust, Sauber or the misterious Stefan?...
Racing against the machine!
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2009:11:27:21:50:18 by Raid Phoenix.
Unfortunate, but it's the reality.
In fact FIA is still seeking Toyota's legal position to sort this mess. Don't know if they have any chance of stripping Toy's entry in favor of Sauber.
HOWEVER, an interesting point is that if Stefan wants to change the entry name it will need the approval from the other teams. I can see some teams against that, especially Ferrari and to some extend both Mclaren and Mercedes; and Todt could lobby in favor of Sauber too. I don't see Toyota letting Stefan to operate a team, with low budget, under the Toyota name...
So, teams won't make it easy for Stefan, which by the way already failed miserably in the past when trying to enter in F1, for example in 1998 with Lola's cars and I recall in 1996 too. Who to trust, Sauber or the misterious Stefan?...
Racing against the machine!
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2009:11:27:21:50:18 by Raid Phoenix.
I just found something interest. It looks like Sauber WILL be in the 2010!. Quote:
Would be F1 team owner Zoran Stefanovic will not be able to take over Toyota’s F1 entry, despite rumors to the contrary.
A Toyota source has confirmed that the company has in effect surrendered its entry and has not attempted to sell it on, and has recently re-confirmed its position to the FIA.
A specialist in F1 team takeovers has also told us that the entry can only be transferred if someone buys the company that signed the Concorde, and which thus has the rights to the entry slot. The entry as such is not an asset that can be brokered around.
[formula-one.speedtv.com]
Racing against the machine!
Would be F1 team owner Zoran Stefanovic will not be able to take over Toyota’s F1 entry, despite rumors to the contrary.
A Toyota source has confirmed that the company has in effect surrendered its entry and has not attempted to sell it on, and has recently re-confirmed its position to the FIA.
A specialist in F1 team takeovers has also told us that the entry can only be transferred if someone buys the company that signed the Concorde, and which thus has the rights to the entry slot. The entry as such is not an asset that can be brokered around.
[formula-one.speedtv.com]
Racing against the machine!
So unless someone can buy Toyota and field an f1 team, then Sauber are on the grid???
Actually according to the other article, even if someone buy Toyota they won't get the entry!
Confirmation is coming from two places, the Toyota source and Stefanovic himself
Sauber in 2010 yeeehah!
Racing against the machine!
Confirmation is coming from two places, the Toyota source and Stefanovic himself
Sauber in 2010 yeeehah!
Racing against the machine!
Excellent....now sponsors and drivers can be pursued.
If BMW had done this in a respectable way originally, they would have sold to Peter in the first place. Not only did the way they pulled out tarnish the brand in my eyes, their subsequent handling of the whole mess made me lose any respect for them.
Adios and good riddance, I hope they never get back into F1 in any capacity. Hopefully Peter gives Mario the boot too!
If BMW had done this in a respectable way originally, they would have sold to Peter in the first place. Not only did the way they pulled out tarnish the brand in my eyes, their subsequent handling of the whole mess made me lose any respect for them.
Adios and good riddance, I hope they never get back into F1 in any capacity. Hopefully Peter gives Mario the boot too!
You are defined by those you keep company with. The BMW board chose to do business with a known criminal and had dollar signs in their eyes after the sums of money he promised. Their good judgement was blinded by greed.
They tried to hide their shame by making the announcement on a Friday afternoon. The true nature of BMW has been revealed, sadly at the expense of the employees who lost their jobs today at Hinwil and my sympathy is with you guys in case any of you are reading these boards.
Even if the Qadbak deal went through, these type of investors have no interest or knowledge of motorsport. The team would've been part of an investment portfolio and would've likely been put up for sale again in 1 or 2 years. Their existence would've been much like the defunct Jordan team before Mallya came along.
It's fantastic that Peter is back and I look forward to the debut of the C25, assuming all this Stefan GP stuff has been quashed.
They tried to hide their shame by making the announcement on a Friday afternoon. The true nature of BMW has been revealed, sadly at the expense of the employees who lost their jobs today at Hinwil and my sympathy is with you guys in case any of you are reading these boards.
Even if the Qadbak deal went through, these type of investors have no interest or knowledge of motorsport. The team would've been part of an investment portfolio and would've likely been put up for sale again in 1 or 2 years. Their existence would've been much like the defunct Jordan team before Mallya came along.
It's fantastic that Peter is back and I look forward to the debut of the C25, assuming all this Stefan GP stuff has been quashed.
well, this have been gone through in a hard way i think... all this matter that arose should have been easier if this is the way it goes... anyway, hope that Sauber team will get their first championship next season...
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