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Peugeot to buy HondaF1? Could BMW supply them?


By BMWF1Talk
December 15 2008

It is being reported that the PSA Group (Peugeot and Citroen) could be one of the potential buyers of HondaF1. Although we are sceptical of how true is this, we take a look at some possibilities of this potential arrangement. Here we look too at the possibility of BMW supplying them engines.

Apparently, as reported by GMM, anonymous sources told the Belgian motor racing magazine Autosportnieuws that the carmaker, last involved in F1 as an engine supplier with the now-defunct Prost team, has made enquiries to buy the Brackley based team as an active F1 competitor.

Although all car manufacturers, including the PSA group, are being hit by the crisis, PSA has the advantage that they don't sell in USA, the most crisis-affected market, which already puts them in a better situation than Honda for example.

In fact Peugeot participates in the Le Mans series with a diesel powered car, while Citroen has been very successful in rallying lately, with Sebastian Loeb given them 5 consecutive WRC championships.

What’s more, currently the only F1 French driver, Sebastian Bourdais, hasn't secured yet his renewal at Toro Rosso, and may lose his seat in favour of Sato and Buemi. So for the PSA it would be very attractive to rescue Bourdais, a multiple Champcar champion, and put him together with Button. Also, Loeb, Citroen driver and  French as well, is adamandant that he would like to become F1 driver from 2010.

The former HondaF1 facilities are also one of the best around the F1 world, especially since the team invested last year lots of money to implement new test benches (for example new more advanced tyre load rigs) and re-organized its staff, after the prestigious Ross Brawn joined the team just one year ago. So in fact buying HondaF1, even if cutting some jobs, is a good investment, especially after FOTA and FIA agreed multiple measures to reduce costs and improve the spectacle. And Honda is well advanced in KERS development, and is believed to have created a good car for next year.

But, how could this affect BMW? 

This new PSA F1 team would need an engine. The problem is that Honda is not very keen on continue providing them, as they want to cut costs dramatically, and only if totally necessary, would they provide engines to the team. So the new team would have only 3 options for next year, and realistically only 2. They would be Ferrari, BMW and Cosworth. Though, most likely Cosworth engines won't be ready for 2009 season, and perhaps they won't even make it to 2010 either, as the standard engine idea was scrapped .

Ferrari are for sure a strong option, as they just stopped supplying Force India, when it became an effectively Mclaren-Mercedes B-team, so they have the capacity and willing to supply HondaF1. Whats more, there is still strong link between Brawn and Ferrari.

Plus, last weekend, rumours of a new collaboration between PSA and Fiat (which owns Ferrari) could happen soon emerged. That would allow PSA to badge their Ferrari engines as Fiat, which would be very logical if this alliance finally happens.

The other option is BMW, which already said that, although not a priority, they wouldn't mind supplying another team if necessary. 

Nick Fry said some days ago that a couple of teams had approached them for engine, so that would demonstrate this theory.

Now, there may be a problem for Ferrari supplying PSA F1. Can you imagine what people will think when they see a PSA F1 powered by a Ferrari engine? I'm not sure of how this would work from the marketing side. It may be positive indeed, or it may be against what is desired by PSA. Some buyers of a PSA car could even (unrealistically) expect their engine to be as good as Ferrari, which is simply not possible, or there may be some other reasoning’s that could make this Ferrari-PSA connection negative. I'll let that marketing advantages/disavantages speculations for you own reflection or for the marketing masters.

However, some of you may remember that Peugeot has already collaborated with BMW in engine production. BMW was in charge of designing and Peugeot of manufacturing 1.6 petrol turbo engines, for the middle range of Peugeots and for the BMW Group Mini Company (the engines used in the Cooper and Cooper S). We could expect that this collaboration could continue, as it was satisfactory, and extend to other projects. This could be for other road car engines or, who knows, F1 engines.

In fact, in the F1 future we could see BMW-designed engines but manufactured by Peugot too, or perhaps badged as Peugeot, but BMW in-house made, or simply named BMW, although we suspect PSA wouldn't like the latter for the middle term, as they would rather prefer all the car to be PSA made or at least with the PSA name on it. What is clear is that Peugot won't produce its own engine from zero, not before 2013 at least, due to the engine freeze which makes new engines entrance almost impossible, and only when in 2013 the totally new downsized turbo engines are introduces, could PSA produce their own engines. 

It would make lots of sense after all. BMW is the only manufacturer in F1 not providing, yet, customer engines, but has the capacity to (by just doing a subtle reorganization), as with the current engine restrictions the Munich factory has re-directed resources to KERS and gearbox, but wouldn't have problems with producing extra engines. In fact next year teams will be allowed to use just 20 engines per year, contrary to the around 60 of 2008, so BMW will have spare capacity to supply Peugeot with another 20 engines.

It would be a good way to recoup some of the cost of the engine department, as well as providing twice the track data over engine. BMW engine is widely believed to be as powerful as other front runners such as Ferrari and Mclaren, but with some better capabilities than the Italian one, for example better fuel economy or reduced refrigeration needs. BMW has already gained recognition as engine supplier over its history in F1, for example during the 80's with Braham-BMW and its extremely powerful turbo engines or during the BMW-Williams days.

All in all, this is an interesting option BMW should definitely look at, and we hope it turns out to be successful. While the Ferrari power option seems more feasible, there is still the chance that BMW could power it.

Remember, some of these ideas are just our speculation and opinion based on real facts, and may become reality in the future...or may not. We shall know in just a few months.

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Peugeot to buy HondaF1? Could BMW supply them?
Discussion started by BMW Sauber F1 (IP Logged), 15/12/2008 10:13
BMW Sauber F1
BMW Sauber F1
15/12/2008 10:13
Peugot to buy HondaF1? Could BMW supply them?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2008:12:17:19:36:37 by J-Raid.

MESSAGES->author
Raid Phoenix
15/12/2008 10:17
Hope you enjoy it. I think it is a good possibility, very interesting indeed. What do you think? Would you like it? WIll MArio hear it or hear us? winking smiley

Racing against the machine!

anon43321
anon43321
15/12/2008 11:16
What about renault engines?

MESSAGES->author
Raid Phoenix
15/12/2008 12:30
Could be, but do you imagine PSA accepting Renault, their biggest rivals (especially in France) providing them the engines?
Plus renault is already supplying Red Bull, and have fired most of their Viry (engine factory) staff, and despite the decision made last week to let them improve the engine, it will still be a bit underpowered.

Racing against the machine!

run1fast
SonnyT
15/12/2008 15:52
Why not Honda engines?

I assume that neither BMW, Ferrari or Cosworth woukld be giving engines to PSA gratis. Honda should sell them engines...maybe even make some money and ammortize some of their R&D expense

sessions
sessions
15/12/2008 16:54
Peugot may indeed step up according to a Le Figaro editorial, but not without several financial safe guards and a guaranteed engine supplier. Honda's aide seems to be lacking in many area's.
Crazy as it seems the JV tie to Peugot was being bantered around as a possible replacement of Rubens or in a test driver capacity.
A Button/Villeneuve revival would be welcome for Jacques fans without Richards in the picture.
Personally I'll only believe it if I see it !
Engine wise, Renault seems to be the logical choice.

sessions



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2008:12:15:16:56:22 by sessions.

MESSAGES->author
JSK
15/12/2008 18:28
Actually there is also another possibility. With recent news about possible Fiat - PSA tie-up it could happen that Ferrari engines were badged Fiat with F1 as a global platform for promotion of Fiat - Peugeot - Citroen brand.

Here is link to reuters story about Fiat + PSA: http://in.reuters.com/article/businessNews/idINIndia-37016920081213?sp=true

MESSAGES->author
Raid Phoenix
15/12/2008 19:49
Quote:
Why not Honda engines?

That would be the most sensible option, but Honda is not keen on that, thats why I discareded it. Honda has said (only) if strictly necessary, they would provide the engines for 1 extra year, but are really willing to all their F1 activities, including engine department, and would prefer not to supply engines any longer.

Quote:
Actually there is also another possibility.

Thats a possibility that had escaped to me. And indeed very feasible. As I said in the article, the Ferrari powered team is a very strong possibility, probably stronger than BMW powered. That said BMW possibility is open, and very possible.

The downside (of the Ferrari-PSA F1) could be that if the Lancia (or with another name of the FIat froup) finally buys Toro Rosso (most likely in 2010-2011), as Red Bull is willing to have just 1 team, Fiat/Ferrari would have to concentrate in those two teams, struggling to focus on a third one.

BTW, JSK, welcome!

Racing against the machine!

TheContrarian
TheContrarian
16/12/2008 00:04
It suprises me a little that Honda would not work a lease deal in for engines with the sale of the team. If they would offer at a break-even price, or even slightly less, I would think that could be a sweetener for those shopping them right now.

I mean, if they stick with the Honda powerplant, there would be no need for the needed R&D to adapt another engine to the chassis. Interesting.

Yeah, sessions, the whole JV thing is soooooo far-fetched, but entertaining. Going by some of the reports, seems Bourdais may be the teammate of Button's.

I wonder what happened to Petrobras. Did they pull out when Honda did? Would they step up if the buyer put in Senna? I have not read anything on that at all. Just the shoppers of Richards and PSA.

I just hope there will still be a team lining up in March in Australia.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2008:12:16:00:04:46 by TheContrarian.

MESSAGES->author
turboturtle
16/12/2008 00:11
but you cannot have a fiat that's faster than ferrari. it's sacrilege.

(Sm151)

regards tt

PS nice avtar JSK

MESSAGES->author
Raid Phoenix
16/12/2008 13:10
Quote:
It suprises me a little that Honda would not work a lease deal in for engines with the sale of the team. If they would offer at a break-even price, or even slightly less, I would think that could be a sweetener for those shopping them right now.
I mean, if they stick with the Honda powerplant, there would be no need for the needed R&D to adapt another engine to the chassis. Interesting.

Yeah, ti would be more sensible if they kept supplying engines, but they said in their statement that they wouldn't and sources claim the same. Though the only exception was that in order to make the selling easier they coul supply engines for 1 extra idea. But thats unilekly to happen, especially given that Honda engines is underpowered too (by around 40hp) and hasn't being allowed to increase the power, mainly because at the WSC meeting, they had already decided to sell; and that there are better engines out there.

BTW, read:LINK Peugeot denies F1 entry for 2009

Racing against the machine!

Tony1
Tony1
16/12/2008 15:20
Erm, PSA and Fiat would seem more logical, as they share car platforms already. The IDEA (?) is a Citroen C4 Picasso, or was it the 806? Their vans are the same (just badged)....and the article is slightly off line abou engine quality. PSA make some of the most reliable (diesel) engines in the world.....try that with a Ferrari....the reliability not the diesel..... lol

sessions
sessions
16/12/2008 17:34
Yes sir, read the article. Total BS by someone. Peugot is out,out,out.
We will be lucky as fans if someone steps up and actually buys Honda is my gut feeling, but there are a few groups or maybe the joining of unexpected parties that have the golden opportunity to snag a better than average team up for sale. Usually the dregs are the only teams up for grabs, but Honda even if they finished lowly have real potential to rebound into a competitive realm IMO. There must be more people like FW and the owners of Force India and Red Bull who have the funds and desire to get into F1 at a decent entry level.
Heck guys with the big $ like Schumacher, Villeneuve and other richer arch enemies should drop their gloves and join ranks, They know the sport and could be owners with serious input.

sessions I know, stop dreaming !

MESSAGES->author
Phil Huff
16/12/2008 20:48
The PSA link first turned up on 7 December (although it was Citroen branding rather than Peugeot) but I couldn't find anything from anybody to back it up, and that's why I never ran the story over at RealHondaF1.com.

Engine supply comes down entirely to any purchaser. Realistically, it'll be a Honda or Ferrari supply - Honda for reasons of easing a sale, and Ferrari as they have the capacity and infrastructure in place already to supply. BMW don't, and I doubt they could get that in place in time.

Cima Racing | Twitter

MESSAGES->author
barteks
16/12/2008 22:49
Phil, any real chances for a new buyer in time?

2008 Prediction Champion

MESSAGES->author
Phil Huff
17/12/2008 00:04
I was told that there may be an announcement this week, but I doubt it personally. If a deal can be done, I don't think it'll be to the timescale Honda want.

Cima Racing | Twitter

MESSAGES->author
Bouncing Bullet
18/12/2008 17:04
Prodrive again interested in Honda? (Since exit Subaru in WRC)

BBC SPORT

BBC SPORT

What do you think Phill? You said it isn't likely to happen and the articles aren't very clear.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2008:12:18:18:59:39 by Bouncing Bullet.

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